00:00:00.579 - 00:00:23.219

All right. OK. So today is August 10th 2020. My name is Chelsea Lee. I'm here with Doctor Donna Murphy and we will be conducting a full length interview. Um So let's get started. Um So where and when were you born? Um I was born in Houston

00:00:23.229 - 00:00:44.930

in 1979. Um Who did you live with throughout your childhood? Um with my parents and my sister and my brother, eventually they're younger than me. Um So yeah, you mentioned you had two siblings. How did this kind of shape your experience living with um a younger

00:00:44.939 - 00:01:12.680

sister and brother? Uh It's a good question. Um I mean, ii I feel like it um it motivated me to uh share my experiences with them, I guess and, you know, kind of broadly speaking, my experiences are just through school, what I learned going through school.

00:01:12.720 - 00:01:36.639

Um My experience with parents um uh being in an immigrant household. Um Yeah, I mean, I guess maybe that was uh the biggest, the biggest way in which I was influenced by being an older sibling. Um Can you describe a bit about like the neighborhood and

00:01:36.650 - 00:01:56.709

community that you grew up in. Yeah. Sure. So, uh, we moved a couple of times. Um, we, we started off in Northwest Houston in the area and, um, I would say that there, that area was not as diverse as, um, the area that we moved to

00:01:56.720 - 00:02:12.229

when I was in junior high. Um, but it was much more diverse than the area that I ultimately ended up in for high school, which was in Spring Branch. Um, but yeah, we, we moved within the si independent school district, which was, I think at the

00:02:12.240 - 00:02:29.175

time and even for some time thereafter, one of the most rapidly growing public school districts in the country, um, and it was becoming more and more diverse. And so, um, while in elementary school, I was in an area where, um, there were not from my recollection,

00:02:29.184 - 00:02:51.889

a large number of like, um, nonwhite students, um, in mid middle school or junior high, there were, uh, I mean, my perception was that they were actually majority, quote unquote minority students. Um, so, so, yeah, and then high school, I, um, I moved to Spring Branch

00:02:51.899 - 00:03:08.639

and, and the demographics there were, were much different than in junior high. Um, where there, I think was the greatest diversity during my early like childhood years. Um, high school was again, predominantly white. Um, and, and then there it was also, uh, pretty privileged, like, pretty

00:03:08.649 - 00:03:28.710

wealthy students and families. Yeah. Could you go on a bit about, um, maybe your parents occupations and maybe any expectations they had for you as you were growing up. Sure. Um, my, my father was, or is, uh, still an accountant and he has his own accounting

00:03:28.720 - 00:03:47.190

business and my mother, um, basically did you know everything that he did, um, but does not have those, uh, certifications. And so she worked with him to, to run his business. Um, and sorry, the second part of that question is 10, sorry. Um, did they have

00:03:47.199 - 00:04:06.419

any expectations for you? Um, growing up? Um, I, I think for me it was primarily expectations that I set for myself. Um, they did, I, I recall, um, suggest very early, I think when I first suggested that I wanted to be a doctor when I was

00:04:06.429 - 00:04:22.540

like five. Right? They, they certainly did, like, pretty uncritically, uh, support that. Um, and, and I was very self critical about it. I mean, obviously it was something that I just kind of blurted out as a five year old. It's not something I'm necessarily going to

00:04:22.549 - 00:04:39.260

stick with, um, through my, you know, older childhood years or adolescent years, um, or young adult years necessarily. Um, but my parents became kind of attached to the idea. So I guess it did become their expectation but it was something that I originally had grown out

00:04:39.269 - 00:04:54.519

there. Um, I mean, that was, I think very similar to other things that I did in my life either as a function of my personality or maybe my birth order um I was, you know, very motivated. I, I took a lot of initiative and so I

00:04:54.529 - 00:05:10.070

kind of created uh the expectations for my siblings, I think as a function of who I was and how I was. Um but they did not necessarily have like a, an idea in their heads, I think prior to me uh of what their child should be

00:05:10.079 - 00:05:36.850

like. Mhm Yeah, I see. Um So since you create this kind of expectation from your parents for your siblings, do they follow in similar footsteps to you? Could, could you say that again? Chelsea, I didn't, I'm sorry. Can you hear me now? Oh um oh I

00:05:36.859 - 00:05:56.850

think you're muted. I think your audio is, is a bit is muted. Yeah. There you go. Sorry. Can you hear me now though? Now? I can hear you. Yes. OK. Great. Ok, I can hear you as well. Oh, I think you were. I think you just

00:05:56.859 - 00:06:30.500

muted this again. Are you able to hear me now? Yes. Yes. This is, I'm sorry. No, you're all good rooms. Um Sorry. What was your question after you asked me about expectations? Oh, right. Since you said you kind of influenced uh your parents' expectations of your

00:06:30.510 - 00:06:49.209

siblings, did they follow in similar footsteps to you? Um My sister did but on a very different time scale and my brother did not at all. And I think that um you know because my sister did, but not until some time had passed. Um, they, I,

00:06:49.350 - 00:07:03.989

I think both of them felt a bit challenged, um, by my parents' expectations of them as a function of who I had been. And, um, I don't know, the, the, the bar that I had set. Right. And I don't wanna, I don't wanna say it's a

00:07:04.000 - 00:07:22.890

bar in terms of like, it's higher or lower than something. But it is, it is something, right? It is standard, right? For sure. Yeah. Mhm. Yeah. Um, what would you say that your experiences were like in the education system, uh, kind of growing up before college?

00:07:23.279 - 00:07:48.079

Sorry. Um, I would say that. Oh, gosh. Um, it's such a broad question. I know. Um, I mean, I don't, what, what part of that question do you want me to tackle? Like, whether I had challenges, whether, I mean, what particular kinds of challenges? What, what

00:07:48.089 - 00:08:17.250

kind of, what aspect of the question? Right? Like any challenges that you faced? Um, yeah, that would be great. Um, hm, I mean, there's, there are so many different kinds of things I can talk about here. I, um, I mean, there are some things that I've

00:08:17.260 - 00:08:33.289

always considered kind of trivial. I mean, in retrospect, I think that, that I ought to probably not erase his experiences in, in the way that I did growing up. Um, I mean, I guess I could, I could talk about that. I mean, I, I have a

00:08:33.299 - 00:08:53.289

number of like, accounts that I recall of being discriminated against as a kid, um, which I just honestly felt was a part of life. I just, I just felt like, oh, well, that's just how things go. And, um, I, I didn't let it really bother me

00:08:53.299 - 00:09:11.150

very much. Um, at the time I didn't really reflect very heavily on it, uh, growing up. But I think more and more as I've like, understood um like racial injustice and anti immigrant attitudes um in the United States, um I've looked back with a more critical

00:09:11.159 - 00:09:28.530

lens on, on that. Um And also in thinking about how I raise my own Children in the face of that kind of discrimination, what people call often microaggressions. And I think that honestly, it doesn't disserve us to those people who have those experiences because it is

00:09:28.539 - 00:09:49.039

a kind of erasure. Um It's to say that they're not really that significant. Those are micro aggressions, right? Um And I think that it's unfair because those experiences can be um traumatizing. Um And, and certainly some communities I think face that in a much uh deeper

00:09:49.049 - 00:10:07.369

way. Um and, and a historic and intergenerational way than, than I had. Um I mean, my parents newly immigrated here in the 19 seventies. And um and, you know, just even the history of immigration of Korean Americans to this country is relatively newer and then there

00:10:07.380 - 00:10:24.909

are like historic injustices against like indigenous communities here. And um uh people who had been enslaved here and that's, and they're the, you know, the um descendants of, of people who were brought here enslaved. And that's a very, very different, I think in many ways. Um

00:10:24.929 - 00:10:42.909

But in the way that I think we all tend to get erased, that our experiences tend to get um ignored or minimized. Um That is, I think a similar experience. Um So, so, yeah, I mean, I guess the, that those are some of the challenges that

00:10:42.919 - 00:10:55.989

I face, which, like I said again, at the time, I didn't really think of them as challenges. Um I didn't actually think of them as, as very distinct um, from like if somebody called me, like, you know, they, they said something that was demeaning about my

00:10:56.000 - 00:11:09.840

physical appearance or something like that and that has nothing to do with my race, right? Like, 01 arm is better than the other or something, right? Like, um, whatever kind of comment somebody might make. I, at the time, never considered that that would be any different.

00:11:09.934 - 00:11:23.525

Like at the end of the day, they're saying something that is offensive to me. Um I don't know why I would receive that any differently if it had to do with my race versus, you know, my immigration status versus my uh physical appearance. Like it's all

00:11:23.534 - 00:11:37.510

mean, you know, like, um, and, and, you know, I've thought a lot more about that as an adult like is it all the same though? Um And if it's not, why is it not like why do we experience that differently? Particularly as we become? I think

00:11:37.520 - 00:11:55.799

more aware of our, our, our intersecting identities. Um Yeah. Yeah. OK. So I'm gonna move on to kind of questions about your college experience. Now. Um I see that you majored in history of Science at Harvard while on the pre-med track, which is very impressive. Um

00:11:55.809 - 00:12:29.500

What made you interested in this major? Oh, I'm sorry, I, I'm sorry, I can't really hear you like, uh you know, humanity, social sciences and the sciences. And I actually, I mean, I had a lot of difficulty trying to decide between, you know, between those things,

00:12:29.510 - 00:12:47.434

between all of those things. And um and so I, I saw, yeah, an opportunity in history of Science which is like a very distinct major, it's not offered at most. Um I saw an opportunity there to not have to choose basically. But uh you know, after

00:12:47.445 - 00:13:06.510

I had chosen that path, um I very much have come to appreciate the fact that it did teach me in a way that was like, um what's the word for it? Interdisciplinary? Um And I think that it has actually in, in very profound ways influenced my

00:13:06.520 - 00:13:30.950

worldview um in, in kind of like a, a meta uh meta way, right? So it's like, um I think in general uh I value more than many might. Um the kind of polymath or the renaissance person um having multiple lenses on issues in society. Um And

00:13:30.960 - 00:13:51.130

on my own life, I think it's been really, really um helpful to me um to understand myself in the world. Um Yeah. Um Yeah, kind of going back you uh said that there were a multitude of majors that you were interested in. Um And so what

00:13:51.140 - 00:14:07.739

were other subjects that you were interested in studying along with like the major that you ended up choosing? Gosh, I mean, I think that I at, at one time considered Spanish language and literature. Um I love, I love literature. I love to read, I love writing.

00:14:07.750 - 00:14:24.859

Um uh I, I speak Spanish better than I do Korean. Um because I was like raised by, in large part, by like a number of Central American, like nannies while my parents were both working um when I was younger. And um that was one of the

00:14:24.869 - 00:14:54.229

things and I actually did get a ac so that was one of the things I was considering, I think I was considering social studies, which um I think there is a lot of overlap honestly between social studies and the path that I chose.

00:14:54.239 - 00:15:16.030

Um It is also, I think in many ways interdisciplinary. Um And um yeah, I mean, I feel like the disciplines that I was looking at for the most part were uh although I've never, I guess explicitly articulated this really, um they were a way at looking

00:15:16.039 - 00:15:33.330

at what I had learned in the past and I think how most people understand the world around them with a really critical lens. Right? Had I chosen something like biochemistry, right? Or physics? I mean, and these things actually were never on my, you know, they were

00:15:33.340 - 00:15:48.059

never in my decision. Calculus. I was never considering doing a major in biochemistry or physics. Um Although I really liked, not necessarily biochemistry, I liked chemistry. I loved biology and I, and I liked physics a lot as well, but I, I did not consider those majors

00:15:48.070 - 00:16:07.799

because I did not think that they would um they would help to cultivate like a more profound understanding of, of the world. Um For me, right, I think I, I thought of those disciplines more as like challenging, of course, like the content is challenging to learn.

00:16:07.989 - 00:16:24.789

Um But yeah, II, I wasn't seeking to be challenged in that way. I think I was seeking to really understand the world from multiple perspectives. And so, you know, it wasn't those disciplines that appealed to me. Um But, you know, I, I did, oh, the other

00:16:24.799 - 00:16:38.150

part of taking history of science is that it allowed, it allowed me to knock out my premed requirements. So that's the other practical reality is that what can I take as a major where I don't have a bunch of additional electives and I'll get my premed

00:16:38.159 - 00:17:00.250

requirements knocked out. So that's great. Um What were some also like defining moments that you had in college? I'm sorry, that's kind of general as well. But, um, yeah, that's a good question. I think the realization that people and, and I think for this, I'm really

00:17:00.260 - 00:17:19.159

um grateful have always been very grateful to Harvard and I'm sure a number of other schools have commitments similarly. But, um, I was very grateful to have a really diverse um set of classmates. Um And I think also I seek that out. So it's not even

00:17:19.168 - 00:17:34.019

necessarily Harvard per se. Like I, I think that if it weren't me, it might have been a student who elected to spend their time with a more homogeneous group. Um But I, I'm always seeking again, like I, I mean, I think of people in my life

00:17:34.109 - 00:17:56.579

friend, whether they're friendships or their, you know, professional networks that I, I attempt to develop. Um they, to me are um they're a gift if they, they allow me to almost live um uh multiple lives through other people's experiences. And so, you know, being in college

00:17:56.589 - 00:18:14.109

where I ended up hanging out with, you know, a, a Korean American who was from Chicago and actually was born on the same exact date that I was born in 1979. And he was like a world traveled concert pianist, performed with the Chicago Symphony when he

00:18:14.119 - 00:18:28.344

was 13. I mean, he was just brilliant um but he was very humble, he was hilarious. Um he was a second generation immigrant whose parents never really learned to speak English. And so he was negotiating like, you know, the, the purchase of their house when he

00:18:28.354 - 00:18:43.015

was like, you know, in middle school. Um I mean, just it's some extraordinary people. I, another friend of mine was um a first generation immigrant who came to the United States when he was eight, I think. Um they escaped from Cuba on a boat um and

00:18:43.025 - 00:19:01.439

ended up in Florida and um his parents both worked in a factory, a factory in, in California and he was at Harvard. Um Another friend of mine, his parents did not complete college degrees. Um but his father ended up being actually um one of the executives

00:19:01.449 - 00:19:17.219

at a big oil and gas company and he ended up uh uh my friend actually ended up again at Harvard. Right. And so, yeah, another friend of mine is like Argentinian American. She had spent like the summer at like the presidential palace in Argentina because she

00:19:17.229 - 00:19:32.989

won some like prize in a program or whatever. And um yeah, and so like these people who had done really extraordinary things but they didn't, they didn't quite come from privileged backgrounds per se. Yeah, I mean, most of them didn't, I didn't really spend time with,

00:19:33.000 - 00:19:49.369

you know, the 14th generation Harvard student. I knew some of them but I didn't, those were not the people I sought out to, to um yeah, to cultivate relationships with. So I think that was maybe the most impactful thing. It's just kind of the relationships that

00:19:49.380 - 00:20:10.170

I, that I um had and that I, that I uh cultivated with people, with my, with my peers there. Yeah. Um Yeah. So moving on to kind of your medical and phd experience, I see you received your MD and phd in Neuroscience from Baylor College of

00:20:10.180 - 00:20:29.739

Medicine. What was kind of this experience of medical school like um medical school? So I did two years of medical school before uh taking what I thought would be one year off to do research. And um the first two years of medical school, I think I

00:20:29.750 - 00:20:49.569

was a decent student. I was what medical students call a gunner. Yeah, it was just like rapidly competitive, right? Um And I wasn't that way in that I was not like sabotaging people. Um but I was often trying to just put on display my knowledge, right?

00:20:50.430 - 00:21:04.119

Um I definitely was doing that. Um And I was also doing that um in order to help other students as well. So like I, I started like a website where I would drop a bunch of my notes and I would collect notes from other students who

00:21:04.130 - 00:21:18.185

also wanted to share um the mater uh the materials they had created for people to study from. Um And so I would put it to service to help other people. Uh But at the end of the day, I think it was very ego driven, right? Like,

00:21:18.194 - 00:21:33.199

look what I've done and I'm so smart. Um I mean, I, I think I, there was just a bit of immaturity about me and, and maybe that was because I felt um maybe it was driven by insecurity. I don't know. I mean, um I wasn't one

00:21:33.209 - 00:21:46.709

of those like hard science majors and so I felt I was a little bit at a disadvantage when I disadvantaged when I started medical school. So I don't know if, if my um uh show show boat, I don't know what to call my, my, my being

00:21:46.719 - 00:22:01.050

a showboat um had to do with insecurity, but that's certainly how I was for the first couple of years. And then I took this year off in order to do some research in a neuroscience lab and really discovered that I loved research and I didn't have

00:22:01.060 - 00:22:13.760

a chance to figure that out as an undergrad. I did a little bit of research as an undergrad, but it was not in the right environment. Um It wasn't with the right mentorship. They weren't asking the right research questions like for me to have taken an

00:22:13.770 - 00:22:29.319

interest at that time. But the lab where I ended up um after two years of medical school, I was really like so um captivated by the work they were doing and also by the community of scientists that were gathered in that particular lab. And so I

00:22:29.329 - 00:22:50.270

was just, I was really um impressed and, and kind of questioning like whether I really wanted to be in medicine honestly. Um So what I ended up doing is um negotiating to take uh more time off to join the MD phd program. So I was the

00:22:50.280 - 00:23:04.939

first student, they actually had that transitioned from this one year research program that they have at Baylor College of Medicine into the MD phd program. Um, they had, they had students before who wanted to do it, but they didn't allow it until I, I asked, I

00:23:04.949 - 00:23:18.709

think I was maybe the third person who asked to do it. And so they let me transition into that program and I ended up completing a phd in that work, um, that I started that first year. And, um, I think coming back to medical school after

00:23:18.719 - 00:23:34.689

that experience, I was obviously much older. I, by, by that time I had had um, two Children. And, um, and so I did not have the same attitude that, like, I, I needed to show the world how knowledgeable I was. Um, I mean, I knew how

00:23:34.699 - 00:23:48.750

knowledgeable I was, which, and, and also at that point, I think I understood how knowledgeable I wasn't right. And I think that's what you do really understand pretty exquisitely if you do grad school, right? It's that, the more, you know, the more you realize what you

00:23:48.760 - 00:24:04.359

don't know. And um so that kind of humility I think was really helpful. Um Going back to medical school, I did have some trouble readjusting, I think because I was so comfortable with what I feel is, was the culture of, of science. I don't know if

00:24:04.369 - 00:24:18.239

this is true or if it was just a product of the laboratory that I was in because I don't think this is universally true talking to, to, to colleagues of mine who ended up in other labs or in different institutions. Um It's not universally true that

00:24:18.250 - 00:24:34.310

uh they have like this wonderful experience and they think that the community is like, so, you know, I don't know, like rich and supportive and like thought provoking and uh people did not uniformly have that experience in science, but I did. And so I had this

00:24:34.319 - 00:24:53.449

notion that like science was this idyllic place. Medicine. Was this like, like hyper hierarchical um all about like memorization and regurgitation of information, no critical thought um just very toxic in a lot of ways. And that's kind of the, the perspective, the lens that I had

00:24:53.459 - 00:25:07.319

on medicine, going back to medical school and then starting residency, I tried to quit residency twice because I just felt like I, I didn't belong um after having done grad school and having had such a different experience that I just wanted to go back. I was

00:25:07.329 - 00:25:18.920

like, I just want to go back to science. I I really detest this. I, I don't want to practice medicine. I don't want to be around these people. Um, but, you know, I stuck with it. A lot of people told me I should stick with it

00:25:18.930 - 00:25:33.339

for mostly practical reasons. They were like, you don't want to have put in all of this effort and to have basically, uh, you know, a, a path to economic security, at least that you're just gonna throw away if you don't complete the training. And so I

00:25:33.349 - 00:25:45.390

listened to them, you know, for better or worse, I think that I would have done fine to not listen to them, but I, I chose to listen to those voices. And um yeah, and I'm, I'm happy with where I've ended up. But anyway, yeah, so that

00:25:45.400 - 00:26:04.260

was kind of my experience in medical school and my medical, the remainder of my medical training. Um Yeah, so now we're gonna kind of transition um into like, how did you decide to pursue sue your current career? Um And please take us through the progression of

00:26:04.270 - 00:26:22.630

your career if you transition through different positions. Sure. Um So currently I'm the Director of Scientific Affairs of an EEG diagnostic company. EEG is our brainwave studies that are done principally on people where there's some um suspicion that they may have epilepsy or seizures. Um But

00:26:22.640 - 00:26:39.035

we do them for a lot of other reasons. Well, um and namely right now there's been like in the last decade or so in incredible interest in, in doing these studies on critically ill patients who are um attended or otherwise, like their consciousness is impaired or

00:26:39.045 - 00:26:55.250

altered. Um We do, you know, we measure their brain waves basically to see what is happening in the brain. And um we've found when we've done this um at scale that there are a lot of people who actually are having seizures when they're critically ill, even

00:26:55.260 - 00:27:10.270

if they don't have brain illness as their reason for being critically ill, like they may be there because they have like kidney failure or something else. But a large number of them actually are having seizures that go undetected unless you're measuring it. Um And so since

00:27:10.280 - 00:27:25.890

they've discovered this, it's become a whole industry, right? So now there are companies that are trying to offer, to measure and to, to read and interpret, have, have physicians, read and interpret the studies. Um So I joined this company in 2015, I think, as a medical

00:27:25.900 - 00:27:49.130

advisor. Um and at that time, I was uh finishing up my training um in fellowship for in and NDEG. And um and then I thought that I was gonna stay in academic medicine. Um I had really, I think a, an unfortunate uh negotiation or lack thereof

00:27:49.140 - 00:28:02.189

with the man who would have been my chairman um where I would have ended up as a professor. Um Yeah, I mean, I guess I won't really go into the details of that right now. Um But I will say that it really might opened my eyes

00:28:02.199 - 00:28:23.339

up to um the uphill battle for women and for people of color in a, in academia. Um And I, I was really blind to it. I remember actually very explicitly thinking um that, you know, at some level, yes, we do need programs to support, you know,

00:28:23.349 - 00:28:41.339

students from communities of color, disadvantaged, otherwise disadvantaged students. Um And, and I was very active actually on that front, I was often participating in like mentorship programs and like outreach programs and things like this um in, in science, in grad school. Um But I, I think

00:28:41.349 - 00:28:57.380

part of me also thought like, you know, at some point, you just have to be good enough and you have to work hard enough and then there shouldn't be any barriers. Um But when I attempted to negotiate this position with my chairman where I came in

00:28:57.390 - 00:29:12.959

in a very favorable position, I mean, I had multiple first author publications. I had an MD phd, I had independent funding for two years. I mean, I had, I had so many things, right? And um objectively, you could look at that resume and say this person

00:29:12.969 - 00:29:28.270

is going to be very successful in academic medicine. Um And I was just, I mean, I felt like I was just taken as a joke um what I was offered um how I was treated and um realized finally in that moment, I mean, I should have

00:29:28.280 - 00:29:47.739

realized it part before then. Um that, no, it doesn't actually ever go away this problem of misogyny of, of racism. Um Those attitudes, they, I mean, they are at the very top of the food chain. Um And so I, I left academic medicine and at that

00:29:47.750 - 00:30:02.099

time, um like I said, I was in touch with this company and being I was doing it. Um I was a medical advisor at that time, I asked them if they could create a position for me basically. And they said, yes, they, they created a position

00:30:02.109 - 00:30:13.123

and I came on as Director of Medical and Scientific Affairs at that time because they were small enough and they couldn't afford to have two different people in those positions. At that time, they didn't have enough work for it. They didn't have the money to support

00:30:13.133 - 00:30:29.213

it. So I, I filled both of those roles for three years. And then in um 2019, last year, I transitioned out of the Director of Medical Affairs role and somebody else transitioned into that role, a colleague of mine. And then now I'm exclusively focused on scientific

00:30:29.223 - 00:30:43.605

work for the company. So I do a lot of clinical trials work um uh wearing my science hat. And then I also do a lot of clinical reading still of eegs in the company. And because I've been there for, for many years and, and since you

00:30:43.615 - 00:31:00.369

know, the early days, I'm also just kind of, I continue to wear multiple hats in the company and I'm engaged with, you know, the executives in the company because I've been there for a long time. Um So, yeah, uh that's a little disheartening to hear about

00:31:00.380 - 00:31:20.540

like your experiences through the industry. But were there any mentors that really helped you along the way? That's a good question. Um I have always sought mentorship. Um I've never thought that that that would come from a single person. And again, I think this is because

00:31:20.750 - 00:31:36.699

my worldview is just that the more information that you have um the more opportunity that you have to decide what path is best for you, right? Uh Every person is unique and, and we're also dynamic as human beings. So like what might have been good for

00:31:36.709 - 00:31:51.170

me at one point in my life might not be good for me now. And so I, I think it's important to have many, many mentors. So I can't point to a single person who gave me advice. Um There were a number of people that I went

00:31:51.180 - 00:32:07.084

to um to get different perspectives on like what action I should take uh when I face some of these challenges and it was pretty traumatizing for me because for about a decade, I thought I would be a physician scientist, academia and um then to get such

00:32:07.094 - 00:32:25.704

a ridiculous offer. Um and really no firm commitment to support my development as a physician scientist and you absolutely need that to be successful. I was like, I'm not going to throw away five years of my life in attempting to move from instructor to assistant professor

00:32:25.714 - 00:32:39.869

to associate professor. Um, when I know that you're not gonna give me the time or the resources to devote to that path to do it. So I was just like, I'm not gonna do that and then to walk away from it. Yes. At one level, I

00:32:39.880 - 00:32:58.410

was like, yeah, power, right? Like I'm walking away from the situation, they're really trying to um to pull one over on me. Um But on the other hand, it was a real um shock. Uh it was um it was really uh unsettling to who I thought

00:32:58.420 - 00:33:13.849

I was like, I, I really had to kind of understand who I was my identity um outside of being a physician scientist in academia because that's how I saw myself for so long, you know. Um But I think it was good for me. I mean, it,

00:33:13.859 - 00:33:31.319

it, it allowed me to learn how to pivot, it allowed me to um extend my networks, expand my networks beyond academia. Um It allowed me to become very comfortable with actually being in very different environments which I think has served me very well in, in the

00:33:31.329 - 00:33:45.650

work that I've done both in um in the work that I do now for, for care. The eeg diagnostics company. But I think even more importantly, or as importantly, the work that I do outside of my paid labor, which are kind of my labors of love.

00:33:45.680 - 00:34:03.479

Um And, and that's a lot of the work that I do in organizing community, organizing and advocacy in our communities. Yeah. So you, as you mentioned, some of the barriers that you face. Why do you think they still exist today? Um Yeah, this is a good

00:34:03.489 - 00:34:18.860

question. There's a fantastic book that I started reading by um a scholar named Ibraham X. I don't know if that's how he pronounced his name. Uh Kendy. Um He writes often for the Atlantic and he's written several books as well. Um He's a, I think professor

00:34:18.870 - 00:34:38.959

of Africana studies. Um, and the, the book I'm reading now is called Stamped from the beginning. And um it talks about racism in America, but it actually starts with, um like the beginnings of Western intellectual thought. Um and how a lot of these um, problems we

00:34:38.969 - 00:34:55.899

see with racism. And I think that in many ways this is also true for, um for sexism or any other is, right. Right. Like sis sexism or hetero or, um, you know, bigotry against people who are disabled or whatever it is or any deviation from what

00:34:55.909 - 00:35:14.469

somebody has established as quote unquote the norm. Right. Um I think that these ideas are very problematic. Um, for a long time, I thought that we could educate our ways out our way out of those ideas. Um Or we could cultivate compassion among people. Um That,

00:35:14.479 - 00:35:27.129

I mean, at some level, you're born with some of these things. Um And, and you have, you know, you're more compassionate than like the person sitting next to you. Yes, I think that that is true also. Um But I did have this hope that um that

00:35:27.139 - 00:36:01.219

some of it was teachable. Um and this book ideas. Um and, and actually kind of um what's the word for it? Like reframing those ideas or repackaging those ideas over time um in order to maintain power and it's, it, it, it is true. If you look

00:36:01.229 - 00:36:17.250

back at it, I think it's a really compelling argument that like, you know, he, you know, there, there's another author named Michelle Alexander who wrote The New Jim Crow, which was turned into a documentary called 13th, right? Um And, and she talks about how like slavery

00:36:17.260 - 00:36:36.350

has really just um uh what's the word? It's um oh my gosh, the word is escaping me. It's like when you uh come back in a second life, what's this word? I can't believe that I'm forgetting this um the book. But yeah. Yeah. No, no, no,

00:36:36.360 - 00:36:49.469

she, she doesn't talk. I, I don't know if she actually uses this particular word uh reincarnation, right? Just every is reincarnated, right? Um This is my word. I don't know that she's ever used it, but in this way, but the idea is the same. Um It's,

00:36:49.479 - 00:37:05.530

it's invented right? From slavery to like Jim Crow to mass incarceration, right? So, like um this kind of thing, it, it has started happening from before. Slavery is the argument that Kendy makes and I, I totally buy it. Right. Um There is something that's very seductive

00:37:05.540 - 00:37:22.860

about power and I think once people have it, they do what they can to manipulate people through ideas um and through institutions um that allow them to hang on to it. Uh And so, yeah, I don't, I mean, I don't know, I, I, now I forget

00:37:22.870 - 00:37:40.510

your original question that I uh it was just about the barriers um and why they still exist. But I think that was a very, yeah, I think that addresses the original question. Yeah. OK. So um I heard that you have uh two daughters. Was it difficult

00:37:40.520 - 00:37:58.100

to kind of balance um the work and life uh balance be with like with Children? Um I, I wish that I could say that it was difficult because I think that that is the circumstance for most people. I was very fortunate because I live where my

00:37:58.110 - 00:38:17.070

parents are and where my husband's parents are and my husband also is like enormously supportive. So um and he had the flexibility to do a lot of um the child care when I was going through, especially my um medical school and residency years during grad school.

00:38:17.080 - 00:38:31.689

II I think I did a lot of it because I had the time and flexibility. Um, and I wanted to, I mean, I think I always want to but, um during med school and residency it was just, it was hard to be the, the primary caretaker.

00:38:31.699 - 00:38:47.812

So it, that fell to my husband. Um, but I understand that many people are not in that, that circumstance. I was actually really kind of irritated when I was um interviewing for residency programs. I was at the Harvard uh Mass Ione Infirmary or Mass Yeah, I

00:38:47.843 - 00:39:03.726

it's one of their, it's their uh principal hospital for ophthalmology residency training. So originally, before I went into neurology, I thought I wanted to be an ophthalmologist and actually applied in ophthalmology. Um And then my husband didn't want us to leave Houston and I, I wanted

00:39:03.736 - 00:39:19.595

to go to a particular program that was very research oriented anyway. So I, I didn't end up following through on applying in ophthalmology. Um But I was interviewing at this program at Harvard and there was um a resident there when I asked her, like, how difficult

00:39:19.605 - 00:39:37.229

residency was with her because she had Children too, um with Children. Um She said, oh, it's not been so hard because my mom moved here. I was like, ok, well, my mom is not gonna move to Boston. She's working and like, she loves me, but she's

00:39:37.239 - 00:39:51.120

not gonna move to Boston to raise my Children. And that's basically what this woman told me. And I was like, that's really unhelpful my gosh. So from that perspective, I think the the real question here is not like, you know, was it difficult for you or

00:39:51.129 - 00:40:05.929

because it wasn't, it wasn't, but that's not most people's circumstance, right? And I think that the relevant advice then to, to, to the majority of the world who actually struggles with this to for women, especially because this is still child rearing still remains highly gendered. Um

00:40:05.939 - 00:40:24.389

I think the relevant advice is, um don't ever be unhappy with the B plus, like you're gonna be juggling many things, you know, and don't try to be that person who has an A and everything, right? Be happy that you have the privilege um to the

00:40:24.399 - 00:40:48.770

opportunity um to not only pursue your career but to have a family, right to, to make a family and be ok with the fact that you're, you're gonna get BS sometimes. That's ok. Yeah. Yeah. So how do you kind of juggle your busy schedule? Um Gosh,

00:40:49.010 - 00:41:06.310

uh I guess this is more relevant now because like after getting COVID, I've actually had to really slow down. Um I physically, um I'm requiring a lot more sleep than I normally do normally. I actually only sleep like anywhere from like 3 to 5 hours a

00:41:06.320 - 00:41:22.699

night. I actually sleep very little, very little. Um But after getting COVID in March, I've required so much more sleep that I've had to figure out what to do with less time. Um, and yeah. So, so I think what is important is that you just be

00:41:22.709 - 00:41:38.040

very intentional about your time. Right. And I think that's especially true now, when we're working from home and the boundaries aren't so discreet. Right. So, it's, whereas we used to, like, go to school or go to work and when we came home we can disconnect from

00:41:38.050 - 00:41:49.689

that at least a little bit. Now, it's harder for many people. Now. I would work from home. So it's been, I, I've had this issue since that for many years, but I think for many people, they're kind of struggling to figure out how do you create

00:41:49.699 - 00:42:06.969

those boundaries to make sure that you can, you know, be attentive to all of the things that you value, right? Um, because otherwise you can certainly let certain activities bleed into the other activities that you also value. Um, and you want to give, you know, sufficient

00:42:06.979 - 00:42:40.760

time to everything right. Time is, um, sorry, I think you're frozen. Oh. Oh, you're good enough. Sorry for sorry. Where, where did you, where did it cut off? Uh when you start talking about time and, but kind of um focusing your time. Yeah. So I, I

00:42:40.770 - 00:42:59.149

think the, the advice I wanted to give there is that um it's important to be intentional about your time um to set boundaries um around it. Um And to realize that uh your time is valuable, right? So, um I have the problem of like saying yes

00:42:59.159 - 00:43:24.570

to everything. Oh, I'm sorry, I'm, I'm sorry. Can you hear me? Oh, talking about something that we want to do together, right? Some kind of collective effort and, and somebody says, well, it would be really great if we could do this and nobody volunteers themselves. I,

00:43:24.580 - 00:43:43.370

I can't handle that silence. I wouldn't volunteer myself and it's all I end up doing things where I think my skill set and my resources are not best utilized. Um But because I just can't handle their being, um I insert myself into things like this. I

00:43:43.379 - 00:44:05.159

volunteer myself for things that I shouldn't. And I think that that is another um It's another way to be uh yeah, to protect your time is, is to be cognizant of that kind of um uh compulsion maybe. Yeah. So what are some values that you consider

00:44:05.169 - 00:44:22.719

important that you might be instilling in your Children that may have not been communicated by your parents? Gosh, that's hard because I feel like the most important value I've like learned in my life came from my parents and I think it really fundamentally informs how I

00:44:22.729 - 00:44:36.705

raise my Children and how I think about the world. So something that did not come from my parents is really hard. Um I'm gonna still stick with actually some, the thing that came from them because in some ways it is actually it because it's kind of

00:44:36.715 - 00:44:50.455

one of these meta observations or like a meta piece of advice. It is actually something that um creates the space for things that have not come from them. So what they told me, I, I remember very distinctly and I'm, I often talk about this when, when

00:44:50.465 - 00:45:08.550

I was 16, I think um we had this conversation where they said that uh there are things that ideas that they have and customs that they have that they have brought with them from Korea, which is where they came from. Um And while some of those

00:45:08.560 - 00:45:28.945

things may be relevant uh to me, um and to how I live my life, um some of those things will not be relevant. And um the, the corollary to that is that things that I learned here, customs practices, um attitudes, values that I learned here in

00:45:28.955 - 00:45:46.000

this country may be more relevant to my life here in this country. And so I have to figure out what things to keep and what things to discard and that's the advice they gave me, which is not, I mean, it's not the kind of advice that

00:45:46.010 - 00:46:19.219

I think most people give. Right. Most people give this very discreet advice and they have like there is ego that is attached. I'm sorry, I think you froze again. Oh, gosh, you're, now you're back, you're back. OK? You're good. Right? Where did it cut off? It,

00:46:19.600 - 00:46:37.689

it cut off um, I think you were talking about, I, sorry, I don't know. That's ok. It's ii, I was in general talking about the advice that my parents gave me and I was, I was trying to say that it was like, um, not directional in

00:46:37.699 - 00:46:51.989

the way that most people would give this. I think that's where you, yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was more like, you know, you're, you're gonna have to figure it out yourself, but it's not that open, right? It's not that open ended. That's not

00:46:52.000 - 00:47:07.780

advice really. Um It, it was to say that there are some things that you inherit that are valuable, right? So you have to figure out what those things are and there are some things that you inherit that are not relevant for the context that you're in

00:47:08.129 - 00:47:22.429

and you have to figure out what those things are. They didn't tell me what those things are because that's a judgment that I have to make myself. And that was very empowering to me. Like it, it was remarkably empowering to me and I think has really

00:47:22.439 - 00:47:37.100

shaped how I live my life and how I've raised my Children, how I think about society and how I, I mean, I'm very anti paternalism, I think because of this, right? Because my parents did not raise me like that, which is unusual. I mean, in some

00:47:37.110 - 00:47:50.179

ways they did, there were definitely, I can definitely give you anecdotes where I'm like, oh my God, that was so paternalistic or they were all over me about this or that. But I think at the end of the day, the overarching theme was like, you're gonna

00:47:50.189 - 00:48:08.189

have to figure this out, right? And just understand that not everything that comes from your parents, not everything that you historically inherit from society, not everything is bad, but not everything is relevant anymore. So you have to figure it out and, and that was like the

00:48:08.199 - 00:48:39.969

best advice. Oh, sorry. Can you hear me? Say, say that again? Can you hear me? Yes, I can now? OK, great. OK. Um So I see you that from your website, you're running for the PISD Board of Trustees. Um And it shows that you have a

00:48:39.979 - 00:49:13.030

deep interest in equal opportunity of education for people of color and immigrants. What kind of drove you towards uh running for this position? Um So I, oh, sorry, I'm sorry, I think I can't, sorry, I can't hear you. Um Oh OK. I think you're back. OK.

00:49:13.080 - 00:49:30.429

Hey, are you on a call right now or can you like not be streaming things or tell the girls not to be streaming things like this is super unstable and they're recording something right now? OK. Um OK. Sorry. What was the question? Oh So I see

00:49:30.439 - 00:49:56.280

running for the PISD Board of trustees and your website shows that you have a deep um interest in advocating for equal opportunity, um, of education for people of color and immigrants. What kind of drove you towards running for this position? Right. So, what I was, um,

00:50:05.239 - 00:50:23.550

ok. Ok. I, um, is it back? Yeah, it's back now. Oh, my God. I'm so sorry. I'm sorry? No. Um, yeah. So I'm not running for ISD school board this year. I ran last year. I just haven't the website but the fundamental question I think is

00:50:23.560 - 00:50:40.239

about how I got interested in running for school board. Right. Right. Um Yeah, so there were a couple of things in 2017, I actually had been, become very active in 2016, 2017, I had become very active in immigration advocacy and um had been doing a lot

00:50:40.250 - 00:50:59.729

of work around, uh know your rights trainings, which is basically teaching immigrant families, um immigrant youth, um how to uh keep themselves safe basically in encounters with law enforcement. Um And that's just kind of acknowledging the reality that we have a lot of anti-immigrant policy um

00:50:59.739 - 00:51:15.169

and anti-immigrant attitudes even uh that we have to protect ourselves from. And so I wanted to be a part of educating people on how to do that. Um And at the same time, I was doing a lot of advocacy in parallel around changing the system that

00:51:15.179 - 00:51:29.469

produced those kinds of attitudes or rewarded those kinds of attitudes and, and to dismantle those kinds of laws. Um But anyway, I went to the school board because I knew that our school district had a lot of immigrant families here. Um, and we had just passed

00:51:29.479 - 00:51:49.629

legislation in 2016, 2017 called SB Four. It's like an anti sanctuary state law which allows local law enforcement to engage with immigration and customs enforcement federally. Um, and, uh, it ends up that local law enforcement will racially profile people who they believe might be immigrants and

00:51:49.639 - 00:52:04.050

they can pull them over, they can question them about their immigration status. And um and so I, I wanted to make sure that the families in Pearland where my Children are um that they were safe because I was doing this work all over Greater Houston. And

00:52:04.060 - 00:52:18.320

in fact, got, had gotten involved in work also across the state and nationally on, on this. And so I was like, well, you know, I should be active in my own community. I'm not doing anything in Pearland where I live. And so, um I went before

00:52:18.330 - 00:52:30.909

the school board at that time to suggest that we provide know your rights trainings to families. Um and I provided the rationale for why that was the moment to do it to start doing it and it just fell on deaf ears and I could tell, I

00:52:30.919 - 00:52:44.969

mean, it was an all um well, there's one African American man on the board at that time, it was otherwise an all white board. And I was like, they just don't, they don't have the lived experience of like being an immigrant in this country, especially in

00:52:44.979 - 00:53:02.939

this particular moment. And so I need to um yeah, I, I need to maybe address that at some point. And so by 2019, I decided after um in addition to having that experience, having actually personal experiences with my Children and the Children of my friends, um

00:53:02.949 - 00:53:17.260

having various kinds of issues with this district. I was like, um we need, we need better leadership in the district and if nobody is gonna step up to run against these incumbents and at the time, there were, I think three seats that were gonna go unchallenged.

00:53:17.280 - 00:53:31.889

Um And I just believe that that is bad for democracy to have unchallenged incumbents like that. At least somebody should throw their hat hat, right. I mean, even you don't campaign or anything at all. Um So I, I decided I was gonna run and, and usually

00:53:31.899 - 00:54:04.129

when I decide on something, it's not like I was, you know, super excited about it. Um I, I never really thought II I never really cared for, for um trying to evolve. It doesn't work that way. It's, it said that there is an,

00:54:04.139 - 00:54:16.909

an environment externally that is forcing that organism to evolve. And so it's like, I don't wanna be on the inside because those people on the inside, they are, they are not the real change agents. Um But then I was like, but I don't want these seats

00:54:16.919 - 00:54:31.639

to go unchallenged and certainly you do need people on the inside to be receptive to the pressure from the outside. So I decided to run and, um, when it, like I said, I wasn't super thrilled about doing it, but when I commit to something, I mean,

00:54:31.649 - 00:54:44.665

this is how I end up doing so much of what I do in my life. Like I said, I feel like I can't, actually, I can't let it just go unoccupied. So I usually will volunteer for things. But what I find is that once I do

00:54:44.675 - 00:54:58.245

it because of just who I am. I am all in. And so, you know, I raised like $30,000. I, I mean, you have to raise, to, to be competitive in Texas. On average, you have to raise around $20,000 in a school work. So I raised like

00:54:58.254 - 00:55:14.840

30,000. I, you know, we touched like, uh either called or canvassed at their doors, um, like 20,000 people, 25,000 people, an enormous number of people. Um And I, I, I hired a campaign manager. I had a campaign staff, I lived my values and paid those people

00:55:14.850 - 00:55:34.100

$15 an hour because that's what I believe people should be paid at, at least right now. Um And uh yeah, and after all of that, they like the incumbents and the, the political machine here that really owns um local government that they're all connected through business,

00:55:34.110 - 00:55:56.294

through their faith communities. Um and they own local government. Those folks put out, I mean, just a horrifying super unprofessional, entirely unethical campaign of disinformation. Um I mean, I had people calling me doctor, I had um we had uh emails that went out in mass with

00:55:56.415 - 00:56:10.610

our faces on the email and an ISIS flag in the background trying to tie us to terrorism just like, uh I mean, I thought it was a joke At first I thought it was a joke and I was, and then I was deeply offended for our

00:56:10.620 - 00:56:28.560

Muslim community here because I mean, it's so intolerant of religious minority communities and I was just like, this is horrifying. I can't even believe that. I mean, I run this Uber Professional campaign. I put out videos like daily so that people can try to connect to

00:56:28.570 - 00:56:43.165

who I am and not misunderstand me because they have no substrate, right? Like they have nothing to go off of. So I'm like, I'm gonna put out videos, I'm gonna engage frequently. I'm gonna offer to meet people in person whenever there is any, you know, uh

00:56:43.175 - 00:57:01.139

what appears to be misunderstanding. I mean, I was very forthcoming. I was, I think, very professional, very kind, very compassionate and that's what they did. I mean, they, they said that they put messaging out there that I wanted to fire all white teachers that I don't

00:57:01.149 - 00:57:20.804

care if white kids get killed that uh I mean, so many absurd and just terrible, terrible things. Um because they, I think, because they were scared honestly, again, it's, it's about, you know, doing whatever you have to do in order to hold onto power. Um And

00:57:20.814 - 00:57:37.850

I think that's what it was, they, they saw here actually somebody who could unseat the people that they had put into place. And so, so that, you know, went however it went. But what I was very proud of is that we, we put in uh you

00:57:37.860 - 00:57:54.719

know, a really genuine effort um to build our community um to change the narrative around a lot of the injustices that we see in our community that we continue to see in our community. Um We learned how to engage with the press very effectively to where

00:57:54.729 - 00:58:08.469

we were able able to change things even without us being on the school board, because we learned how to publicly engage to where there was political pressure on the school board members to change certain policies. So, I mean, that's what I want at the end of

00:58:08.479 - 00:58:20.030

the day, I'm not seeking like fame or glory because I have my name on some plaque or something as a school board member. Um I mean, I could care less most of what I do in my life. I feel like that I feel is important. I

00:58:20.040 - 00:58:34.270

do without acknowledgement. I don't talk about it necessarily except to maybe a very few, a very small number of people. And that is not what I'm seeking to do. I I'm seeking for change, to happen, for people to be empowered uh to be a part of

00:58:34.280 - 00:58:54.780

that change making. Um I'm not seeking credit. That's, that's really scary to hear what people will do to kind of keep their power or like when they feel like threatened by other people. Ok. Yeah. Um So your website also talks about your interest in kind of

00:58:54.790 - 00:59:14.590

mental health. Um What do you, what is kind of your perception of um Asian Americans as like this model minority? Um And therefore kind of, they're told to shun away from seeking uh mental health support. Um Even when there might be a need. Oh my gosh,

00:59:14.600 - 00:59:27.239

I missed most of that. Can you hear me right now? Yes, I can. I'm sorry, I can. You said that the website talks about mental health and then I lost you? Yeah. Right. OK. So, yes, uh I saw on your website that um you have an

00:59:27.250 - 00:59:43.050

interest in kind of mental health. So I was wondering what your thoughts were about the perception of um Asian Americans as this model minority. Um And therefore, uh we kind of shun away from seeking mental health support even when there may be a need for it.

00:59:43.959 - 01:00:00.149

Yeah, I um I really appreciate that you framed it in that way because I don't normally think about it like that. But certainly I think it, it is a disservice to um all people in our communities that, that we inherit this myth, right? Um And I

01:00:00.159 - 01:00:17.614

mean, I think to be fair, um there are many people in our communities who perpetuate the myth. They um so they do play an active role in that. Um But yeah, it is, it is a disservice to us as, as whole human beings because it suggests

01:00:17.625 - 01:00:35.300

that we are like super human, right? Um That, that we are, we work harder than others that we're smarter than others, that whatever the case may be, right? That, that um and I um I think it's really unfortunate, I think that it really will take work

01:00:35.310 - 01:00:54.560

uh from within our communities to address that and to dismantle that. Um but I think it will also take work between our communities and um and other minority communities to um to help dismantle that myth because I think some of the toxicity, um some of the

01:00:54.570 - 01:01:14.110

toxicity comes from ideas that are also uh perpetuated by people outside of our communities, right? Not people who invented the myth necessarily, but again, people who have adopted it and they believe it. Um and you know, for better or worse, right? They may have a positive

01:01:14.120 - 01:01:29.290

impression of you because of that myth or they may have a negative one because of that myth. Um And I, I just, I think my myths are bad in that way, like because it denies um it denies your individuality, right? And your humanity in a lot

01:01:29.300 - 01:01:48.060

of ways. Um and it just kind of marks you as um as a type, right? And um yeah, and I think mental illness is like, it's a real thing that I think people are, are just now beginning to take seriously, you know, with parity in terms

01:01:48.070 - 01:02:03.790

of like how they regard mental health versus physical health. Um When I, are you still with me here? Can you hear me? Yeah. Where did I blink out? You didn't blink out. Your voice was there but your video froze. But I think that's OK. OK. Got

01:02:03.800 - 01:02:16.399

it. Yeah. So, I mean, you know, when I ran for a school board, um I realized, uh that, I mean, I was very pleased to realize this actually because it was an idea that I had in my head um that it did not come from, from

01:02:16.409 - 01:02:30.479

where I discovered it when I was running. But I discovered that the CDC at the time, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and they had a whole like, um I don't know what it, what it's called. I don't know, it's not a campaign, but it's

01:02:30.489 - 01:02:47.540

kind of like a framework for thinking about um for thinking about how we educate Children and that it should be holistic, right? Um So that's how I ran my campaign actually is like, I am a candidate who will push for policies that are fundamentally informed by

01:02:47.550 - 01:03:06.370

this idea of whole child health. That this, that, that the way we educate Children should not be exclusively about cognitive development or academic achievement, but it should very much um integrate. Um you know, how much we value or should value the social and emotional development of

01:03:06.379 - 01:03:21.469

Children, um which includes their mental health, right? And well-being. And we had a real problem with that in our district because we had a number of suicides, like our suicide rate was like several fold higher than the average for the country. And so, um so yeah,

01:03:21.479 - 01:03:33.570

it was, that was a big deal. And we did have uh we do have also a very large Asian American community. I don't know, actually the identity, the the racial or ethnic identity of the kids who committed suicide. Um beyond a couple of them, one of

01:03:33.580 - 01:03:47.639

them was uh there was an attempt that where the child was biracial and, and half Asian. Um but it is a big problem in our communities. I think also there's a lot of silence and shame about that, those kinds of issues. Um And that's, I think

01:03:47.649 - 01:04:00.830

independent of the model minority myth. I think that even if you go to East Asian or even Southeast Asian countries, there will be a lot of those same kinds of cultural attitudes. Um So, so we're facing a lot of intersecting challenges. I think in terms of

01:04:00.840 - 01:04:24.699

how we deal with mental health in our communities, right? I'm going to shift into kind of the COVID questions. Um You mentioned that you had uh contracted COVID. Um, what was kind of your that experience? Um, like, um, it, it's been really frustrating, right? Because, um,

01:04:25.239 - 01:04:44.040

thank God I'm, I'm a physician because I, and, and that I have just kind of confidence in, in my own ability to assess a situation and, and my situation. Um, but I, I got, I started exhibiting symptoms when they were not testing widely. Um I went

01:04:44.050 - 01:04:58.334

to a community uh where I was exposed to someone who had been exposed to a person who was a person, what they call a person under investigation. And ultimately, when they realized, oh, this, this might be and like this is the woman who works at a

01:04:58.344 - 01:05:12.344

hotel desk where they have a lot of international travelers. And so they're like, this might be this, this disease that everybody's talking about everywhere. And yeah, so they were just, it was just coming into their consciousness that this could be a problem in their community. And

01:05:12.354 - 01:05:28.610

so it never occurred to anyone to test me. Like at that time when I came back to Houston, um they were uh not testing here, any people who had not traveled internationally, right? Or had very specific symptoms. And I was like, I don't really get this

01:05:28.620 - 01:06:00.429

because when I look at the literature, like the, the literature from Wuhan, um it was like tens of thousands of people, they had described such a multitude of symptoms, right? Like just kind of a syndrome across many different organ systems, including the me.

01:06:01.100 - 01:06:17.199

Uh oh. I'm sorry, can you hear me? Yeah, I can. Ok. Ok. So you uh you froze when you were talking about the organs and the body being targeted uh by COVID throughout the body, right? Um But, but the screening they were doing here at least

01:06:17.209 - 01:06:35.409

early on was very focused on like the the most common symptoms. And like, I mean, I understand why you might want to start with the most common symptoms at like the top of your list. What a list, right? Like three of the 20 like you should

01:06:35.419 - 01:06:49.510

just list them all and ask people, do they have any of these? Because they were manifest in, in so many people in China. Um And then also in Italy and I'm like, we have so many examples internationally of like, what is happening to people with this

01:06:49.520 - 01:07:05.139

disease? Why are we like creating like that all of this a new? And um so I was really frustrated. So I didn't actually get a diagnosis of this um from PC R testing because I didn't test or which is like the nasal spot test. I didn't

01:07:05.149 - 01:07:19.959

test for it until well into my symptoms. And you know, from what limited literature exists on this, the longer you wait, the less likely it is that you're gonna have a positive test. So I had all these symptoms but I never had a positive, like PC

01:07:19.969 - 01:07:34.939

R confirmed diagnosis. Right. Or testing, confirmed diagnosis. And, um, yeah. And so I was like, in the middle of having this illness. And in fact, I, I mean, I knew about this illness in January because I had friends who were, like, freaked out about their families

01:07:34.949 - 01:07:47.169

and the reason about their families in Wuhan. And, um, so I was hearing a lot about it and then I was like, oh my gosh, it's coming here, like, if there was a case in Washington, I was like, we, we have to be prepared for it.

01:07:47.179 - 01:08:01.770

And so I, I held actually the first to my knowledge, it was the first like community COVID forum um in Pearland in Greater Houston. Uh And so I held that like, on March 5th, I think, and so in the midst of doing all this, like, education

01:08:01.780 - 01:08:15.219

and organizing and advocacy around COVID, like I get COVID, which was frustrating and ironic and like, um and then I can't even get a diagnosis for it. Right. And so then it's like, well, do people even believe me that I have this illness? I mean, I

01:08:15.229 - 01:08:29.028

was like sleeping like much more than I normally do. And I had like, I had this constellation of symptoms. It wasn't the typical stuff at all. And, and I've continued to have it like, I've had to go to, there were in May, I had to go

01:08:29.039 - 01:08:43.338

to the, er, like two days in a row, they almost hospitalized me. I got like, three different brain and head scans. Um, on Monday of this past week I had to go get another, like, brain vessel study because I had another, like, sudden onset neurological symptom.

01:08:43.649 - 01:09:00.089

Um, I'm somebody who's like a prolific writer and I have had difficulty writing. I, I notice that I make a lot of mistakes. Um, I, at, at the beginning I was like, substituting words. So like I would choose like before instead of between, which made no

01:09:00.100 - 01:09:16.359

sense in the right. And um and now I'm just making what maybe some people think are, are um typos, typographical errors, which that would be generous because I, I don't think they're typos. I think there's something that is not right about the way I'm thinking that

01:09:16.370 - 01:09:30.829

is not allowing me to express myself as, as um readily as I was able to before. Um So I still write quite a bit, but I find myself making a lot of mistakes. I have to check my writing much more. Um Yeah, so, I mean, I've

01:09:30.838 - 01:09:44.818

had it, I've had actually a lot of neurological symptoms. Um and I, I actually have had a history of a brain infection. So there might be something about my brain that is just more vulnerable somehow. Um At that time, they thought it was like a cold

01:09:44.829 - 01:09:58.286

virus that had gone to my brain, like maybe through my nose or something like that. Um, but yeah, I have like an encephalitis. Like I was out for like a week. I was not, I don't remember that week of my life. Um, so, so I think

01:09:58.295 - 01:10:12.251

that, that whatever is happening with COVID now, the fact that it's manifesting in the way that it is in me, I think it might be particular to me. Um, although, although the literature does show like pretty pervasive reports of neurological symptoms, like, like up to like

01:10:12.262 - 01:10:28.251

30% of people have some kind of neurological symptom that they're reporting. And if you include things like fatigue, which, you know, I, I don't know that I really count that as neurological but um it's much more like fatigue is one of the most common um symptoms

01:10:28.262 - 01:10:50.359

in COVID, especially post COVID, right? So, wow. Um um so on the same kind of idea, what do you think about the whole, like the way that uh in which the government has chosen to handle the situation? Yeah, I mean, I think so much, I think

01:10:50.370 - 01:11:14.049

in kind of the crisis of leadership at many levels of government that I see. Um It's, it's an inability to admit error. It's um a reluctance to um characterize in terms of um like nuanced realities as opposed to absolutes. Um people tend to lead in absolutes,

01:11:14.379 - 01:11:33.629

um they tend to message in absolutes and I think it's because uh it is um galvanizing to voters often. Right? Like if you say, well, I don't take this position exactly like on this binary, right? I'm not exactly there. I hit somewhere in the middle for

01:11:33.640 - 01:11:50.214

these reasons. Like that is not as compelling as, like I'm here because I have this conviction. I mean, that, that is what you traditionally think in terms of leadership, right? Like somebody who is very, they, they have strong convictions, right? And they're gonna see them through

01:11:50.225 - 01:12:06.029

and you know, they have just like um uh values that cannot be undermined, right? Like this is kind of what most people I think have traditionally thought of in terms of leadership. And these things are very problematic when you have a pandemic that you do not

01:12:06.040 - 01:12:21.540

understand, right? And you're constantly having to reevaluate and to pivot, you cannot be operating in absolutes, you cannot, and you have to be able to say I was wrong there. The reason we are taking course is because I was wrong and it's because science is evolving,

01:12:21.549 - 01:12:38.189

right? And, and sometimes it's because you're an evil person and you made the, you know, uh a calculated evil error. Um But you know, I I'm I try to be generous, I think most mostly um it's not that I think that at the highest levels, it

01:12:38.200 - 01:13:09.640

might be some of that. I think it, it is, it is political posturing, political calculation. Um And that I think is very unfortunate, but I think the majority of Americans. Um, that's not why they're behaving in the way they're behaving. It's, and that, and are, are

01:13:09.649 - 01:13:28.490

you there? Oh, yes. Sorry. Um, you paused at, uh, talking about why certain people are behaving the way they're behaving. Um, yeah, I don't, I don't remember exactly what I said there but I, what I wanted to go on to say is that, um, I mean,

01:13:28.500 - 01:13:48.959

it's to kind of just like, close with um it being really a lack of humility in, in leadership. Um And, and I think it is um I mean, it, it's also, unfortunately, systems that we've created um or attitudes that we've created over a long period of

01:13:48.970 - 01:14:06.379

time where people do not feel empowered to change. Um the lack of leadership, right? Like they, they don't feel empowered and that they don't actually know that there is any avenue for change, right? Like they don't know how to engage the systems around them. Um They

01:14:06.390 - 01:14:21.745

don't know how power maps in their communities who holds the poor, who do you go to when you have a problem? People don't understand these things. And it's been very intentional by people who have held power in the last several decades. They have very intentionally divested

01:14:21.754 - 01:14:38.279

or disinvested from um educating the populace, right? In terms of like civic literacy and, and that's a real problem because then when you're in a crisis and you have poor leadership, right? Then how do you get yourself out of that crisis. But for the populace to

01:14:38.290 - 01:14:56.939

understand how to come together and to act collectively, to basically rescue that the the situation, right? That can only happen when there is enough people, there are enough people who are are civically literate, um who can organize their communities and take collective action. And I'm hoping

01:14:56.970 - 01:15:13.009

that there are currently enough of us um that have learned enough, especially over the last four years when there, there's been like a super like um uh strong anti Trump reaction that, that there is a way out of this um that a lot of these problems

01:15:13.020 - 01:15:31.930

are actually longstanding problems. Um Yeah, and that, that, you know, we can organize ourselves out of this problem and hopefully we stay committed to it because, you know, organizing ourselves out of the pandemic, organizing ourselves out of a Trump presidency. This is all very transient. Like

01:15:31.939 - 01:15:51.950

we have to understand that this is a long term investment in basically shifting the, the culture of civic consciousness. Um Yeah. Yeah, that was, that was very well put. Um But do you think there has been enough Asian Americans um like participating in recent events uh

01:15:51.959 - 01:16:09.850

related to protests for racial injustice such as Black Lives Matter response to COVID um like racism against Asian Americans and kind of the current um administration's handling of international students? Sorry, that was a long question. Yeah. No, no, no, but there are a lot of things

01:16:09.859 - 01:16:30.770

going on. Um, I always wish for more. Um, I, I mean, I think this is like a function of being progressively minded. It's like we can always do better and, and I think that that is, you know, true invariably, um, including for Asian Americans. So, yeah,

01:16:30.779 - 01:16:45.419

I mean, there are things that are disappointing to me about our communities and that we are not as politically engaged as others are. Um, but at the same time, um you know, we haven't been here collectively, as long as some of these other communities have been

01:16:45.430 - 01:17:00.555

here, right? So like Latinos have been here, some of them before this country was founded, right? Like in Texas, we have people who have been here since this land belongs to Mexico or to Spain or what, right? And, and you know, uh people who are black

01:17:00.564 - 01:17:13.984

in America, other than black immigrants, new, new black immigrants um are, you know, the de descendants of slaves, they've been here for 400 years, right? So it is unfair to say like that, I expect us to be in the same place in, in terms of our

01:17:13.995 - 01:17:35.410

political consciousness um as, as Asian Americans, that being said, I feel like we have an opportunity to learn from like our brothers and sisters in other um communities, right? Um to hopefully accelerate our consciousness, right? Um And for us to become more aware and more involved

01:17:35.419 - 01:17:52.384

in our communities, um It's also difficult, I think for us because um and, and this was actually in, in some part driven by us. Um or maybe even in large part driven by Asian Americans, there was a decision just like for Latinos to kind of cole

01:17:52.395 - 01:18:10.240

collectively identify as Hispanic, right? Or, or as Latino, um it gives you political power. And so we've done that as Asian Americans, I mean, there are various acronyms that describe us, the one that I most commonly use as a API which is Asian American Pacific Islander.

01:18:10.250 - 01:18:29.020

But people use a number of different ones um to be more inclusive uh typically. Um and to be more nuanced. Um and I, I think that it's been difficult because we are very heterogeneous, like not only do we come from different countries but like Latinos do,

01:18:29.299 - 01:18:47.520

but we speak many different languages and we have, we're culturally. Uh yeah, there are some things that unify us across culture. But I think we also have very distinct cultures too. Um just depending on just which communities you're comparing within the A API umbrella. And so

01:18:47.529 - 01:19:05.180

this makes it a lot more challenging for us to act collectively, right? Um Yeah, but all of that being said, I think that diversity is strength, you know, like, again, like in biology where um you know, genetically the most robust organisms are the ones that are

01:19:05.189 - 01:19:22.850

most genetically diverse. Um I, I think the same thing is true when you think about society as an organism. Um So, so when you think about the challenges that we face as a api s to organize ourselves and to be um to, to um capture more

01:19:22.859 - 01:19:40.049

political power for our communities, uh not in a competitive way, but in kind of an empowering way in, in a a cooperative way with other communities. Um But to be, to, to be heard, to be represented, right? Um I think that overcoming those challenges will make

01:19:40.060 - 01:20:01.609

us stronger, it will make us very strong because there are so many challenges to overcome. So it's both a blessing and a curse. So what do you think will motivate the Asian American community to show more support for kind of these causes or politically? You know,

01:20:01.620 - 01:20:33.240

I, I think I've kind of come to a place that not just for Asian American, sorry. All right, you're back. Oh You left off as uh like one sentence in. Um So, so I think that um it, yeah, what I was gonna say is

01:20:33.250 - 01:20:48.330

that um not just for Asian Americans, but for human beings in general, I think that crisis is all often required for change to happen. So that means that the moment that we're in right now, that is a very difficult one. Also, I think creates the opportunity

01:20:48.339 - 01:21:04.930

for them to be very transformational change in our society. And that includes um with a Asian Americans who are affected in very particular ways with this pandemic. Um and also with all of the discussions that are emerging around race, right? Um that are very heavily, I

01:21:04.939 - 01:21:23.240

think with good reason focused around Black Americans. Um But I think that a lot of the conversations that are, that are um happening are more uh more inclusive than just black Americans, right? It's, it's about a lot of different groups and um and about um yeah,

01:21:23.250 - 01:21:39.029

just anybody who's not nonwhite basically right in this country. Um So I, I think, I think it does take prices often for us to change. Um The only exception to this and this is why I ran for school board. This is why I continue. I, I

01:21:39.040 - 01:21:53.049

maintain that. Like, if I were to run for anything else, I think it would have to be something that has some influence over education, substantial influence over education. Um It's that the the the other thing is that um you can change the way people are educated.

01:21:53.620 - 01:22:06.049

Um And, and this is not in a like kind of a pedantic way. So again, kind of going back to the kind of advice that my parents gave me, right? It's not giving them a directive in the way that you educate them. It's not telling them

01:22:06.310 - 01:22:22.535

what to think about the world, but how to think about the world, right? And how to interrogate the questions that they have, how to interpret the data that they collect, like these kinds things. It's like, you know, educating people in the manner of thinking, right? Um

01:22:22.544 - 01:22:39.174

I think it's really critical um whether we're talking about scientific literacy, which is relevant in this moment with a lot of misinformation and disinformation on the pandemic. Um or whether we're talking about civic literacy. Um I think that people need to think people need to learn

01:22:39.185 - 01:22:58.979

how to think critically. Um And that I think may change um that, that may change for us, a lot of the injustices that we see, it may resolve those injustices in very substantial ways. Um When people realize that this is actually like I told you, and

01:22:58.990 - 01:23:21.310

I've come to believe this is about um manipulating ideas uh for power. Uh And it's not because of the intrinsic inferiority of a particular group, right? It's not um it's not about the, the behavioral choices or the the cultural practices of a particular group even it's

01:23:21.319 - 01:23:38.089

not, I mean, we're all different in different ways, right? And, and none of those ways is less or more than the others. Um And, and that anybody who has those kinds of ideas, whether they believe it is by, by nature or by nurture that any particular

01:23:38.100 - 01:23:54.100

group is more or less than any other. Um This is, that's a racist idea and I think that there are ways to kind of untech that. Um And it's not just in saying don't be racist that uh that does not work. I think it is in

01:23:54.109 - 01:24:11.080

teaching people how to think critically about themselves and about the world around them that I think will undo racism. Um And, and that is an educational endeavor that's long term. Um But I think that if people committed to those things, then, you know, both uh in,

01:24:11.089 - 01:24:26.540

in leveraging the moment that we're in, right to, to create some transformational change. And also committing to a longer term vision of educating people in such a way that they have the tools to interrogate um this kind of manipulation that we're, we're subject to. Uh Then

01:24:26.549 - 01:24:46.649

I think we're gonna solve a lot of problems. Um Yeah, well, we've covered all of my questions. But do you have any closing remarks or any hopes for the future generations? Um I, I mean, I just wanna say that I really appreciate the opportunity to, to

01:24:46.660 - 01:25:03.859

speak with you guys um as part of this archival project. Um I, I had recently been asked by actually like two or three people. I, I think this week, I'm knocking them all out these kinds of things like podcasts or like the interviews. And um I

01:25:03.870 - 01:25:20.100

always feel very weird about that because I don't, again, I'm not somebody who tries to center myself in anything that I do. And um I am very anti cult of celebrity. I think that this also contributes to problems with um civic consciousness is that people externalize

01:25:20.109 - 01:25:36.104

their responsibility to take action. They say, well, that person is amazing that person is a hero. I'm gonna clap for them and I don't have to do anything. Right. And, and I think this is um really problematic and, and this is kind of my, that was

01:25:36.115 - 01:25:52.549

my first impression by like all of these requests to do these podcasts and this project and is like, I don't like to contribute to that. Um But I will say selfishly that it, it actually does really help me to think about what I'm doing in my

01:25:52.560 - 01:26:07.399

own life to, to have the opportunity or the privilege to speak to you and to other people about what I'm doing and why I'm doing it and how I think about the world. Um And so I feel in a selfish way, very grateful uh for that

01:26:07.410 - 01:26:22.759

opportunity for me. Um I'm hopeful that this is in some way, help, help or helpful to other people. I don't know in what way precisely it will help other people. But um I hope that it does. I imagine that you all think it will. That's why

01:26:22.770 - 01:26:54.490

you have taken the task. Um And so are you back? I am back. Sorry. Yep. Yep, definitely froze for a while there. Um But yes, yeah. No, I would just like to thank you for taking the time to do this interview and share

01:26:54.500 - 01:27:11.910

with us your experiences. Um I don't know. I personally learned a lot um in this hour and a half and you were very well spoken. So, I mean, expected. But it is surprising nonetheless. So. Yeah. Well, thank you very much. I'm glad that it was helpful

01:27:11.919 - 01:27:25.810

to you. I hope that it is helpful to others. And you're an undergrad at rice or you're a grad student, uh, undergrad, undergrad? Ok. Well, good luck to you. I love rice. My husband is a rice grad. Oh, really? Yeah. And I, I would have gone

01:27:25.819 - 01:27:38.029

there but I ended up going to Harvard. My parents were like, no, you need to go to Harvard. If you hate Harvard, you can come back to rice. I did actually hit Harvard for the first semester, but they wouldn't let me come back to rice. Um,

01:27:38.129 - 01:27:55.529

anyway, I, I stayed there and it was fine. It was good. Yeah. I, I mean, to be fair, I hated rice for the first semester as well. So I might just be a first semester all around thing. Yeah, for everyone. Yeah. All right. Well, we will

01:27:55.540 - 01:28:04.890

send you up a follow up email with more details. Um, and anything else? So awesome. Thank you so much. Have a great day. Take care. Bye bye bye.