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So today is October 18, 2021. My name is Ann Shi. I'm with the Houston Asian American Archive. Today we're interviewing Mr. Gary Sham. How are you, Mr.

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Sham? I'm good. Good. Good evening to you—good morning to you, I suppose. Yeah. Thank you so much for taking this interview with us. To start, can you tell us when and where were

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you born? I'm actually a native Houstonian. I was born in Houston, Texas, here in the US, on August 9, 1963. So I was born and reared here in Houston. To some degree, my–my family and some of my friends tell me that I'm actually

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pretty boring. I did not go to college outside of Houston—I went to Rice University. And then of course, my job and career and my-my marriage, everything, my family—kept me here within the city of Houston. Although, I

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live in Sugar Land now—that's where me and my wife and my family live, in the southwest part of the Greater Houston Area. Can you describe the—what Houston was like during your childhood?

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Oh, wow. Um, you know, I think—of course, I didn't keep up with the news when I was growing up. Um, but I think in the areas in which I grew up, particularly I—we moved to a different part of the city when I was, let's

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see, eighth grade. So that's, what 12–12—no–no 14 years old. So where I came from, and–and grew up in my childhood—grew up to that point, was predominantly Caucasian.

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Um, you know, white America. We had some African Americans and some Hispanics, but in the area I live—but it wasn't near as much as–as it is today, where the city of Houston is much more diverse.

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When I moved when I was in eighth grade, similarly, the–the area that I lived in, was predominantly white or Caucasian. We did have, of course, minorities. There actually were a lot more Asians—Far East Asians, if you will,

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in the neighborhood. I lived in Alief, that's this part of town that I lived in when I was going to middle school and, of course, high school. So, there was a–a definitely higher concentration of Asians at the time.

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So that was a little bit of adjustment for me. More so in a positive direction, you know? Meeting and seeing people that I could potentially relate to culturally was definitely a–a change for

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me. But yeah, so Houston, was—as we know, is very diverse today, very much a melting pot. But in my experience, growing up, it wasn't that much that I could see based on, you know, the experience that I had.

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And what were some of your earliest childhood memories? Um, well, my–my family—my–my parents, I guess I could characterize it—the—particularly my father, and his side of the family, very traditional Chinese, in a sense—we had a grocery store, a

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family owned business, and he spent, gosh, you know, seven days a week there, and, you know, 14, 16 hours a day he spent there at the business. My mother, schoolteacher—public school teacher in Houston Independent School

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District. Uh, so she was doing that job up until high school for me. Uh, and then she retired and went into private teaching, if you will, with–with other school districts—or not really in school districts, but the parochial

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schools. So, you know, my memories in that regard was because my parents worked so long and so frequent in terms of the number of days— ‘cause my mother, even though she taught school, she'd work 12, 14 hour days as well,

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staying at school, helping other students, catching up on gradings and things like that. I was very much a latchk-latchkey child growing up. I don’t know if you’re familiar with what that term means.

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So I would go to school, then I would ride the bus home—public school bus—public bus, ‘scuse me—coming home, and then lock the door—latch the door, if you will. And that's how I would spend most of my time—that’s

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why for me, when I was growing up in elementary school, through middle school, I really didn't have any circle of friends growing up. I had friends at school, but when you would go to somebody's house or you know, have a

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hangout in the afternoon or play around, I was not able to experience that as–as a child. That's one thing that in my child—was very much to myself. That's why now, as an adult, you know, people feel that there are times when

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I tend to want to isolate myself or be alone, ‘cause that's just the way I've grown up and the way that I'm used to it. So, for me, that's something—that is the lifestyle that I have geared toward. And so that's something that may be unique for me, I don't know, but definitely me and–and–and

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how I grew up, definitely a latchkey child. So—I used to always say TV was my best friend. That's –that's all I had to do for entertainment value after, you know, you're done with school and such.

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Do you mind sharing some of the TV programs that you were watching back then? Well, I was trying to remember, of course cartoons, you know, growing up, for sure, you know, watching. And, of course, when I was growing up, English was the language spoken in my home. So, it wasn't like I

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watched TV for the purpose of learning English. My parents were very much of the philosophy—my mother was a schoolteacher so, she very much—at that time, the—I guess, the thought process was, “Do not teach your kids

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multiple languages because they'll get confused, or there'll be—you’ll have difficulty in differentiating between the two.” As we know now, actually, the sooner you teach children, multi—bilingual or trilingual, multiple

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languages, even from birth, that is the time to do it. Don't wait, because it gets harder as you get older. And so for me, you know, speaking English at home ever since I can remember growing up, I didn't watch TV for the sake of

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language, if you will. So it was mainly cartoons, a few sitcoms, here and there. You know, and that's kind of what it—and again, we didn't have cable back then, when I was going—growing up in elementary school. So there wasn't a lot of choice, right?

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So, you know, those are the programs that, I guess, kind of stick out in my mind that I watched as I was growing up after school. That’s wonderful to hear. And can you tell us a little bit about how your earlier generation came to

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Houston—or came to US to begin with? So, from my father's side—my father was also born here in Houston. He was born in 1931. Um, his mother

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was quite young when she married my grandfather—or my father's father. It was culturally—it–it’s kind of the way where he went back to China, you know, f-found a young wife brought her back over here to the US,

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he was—I think there's probably—I’m gonna say 40 to 50 years difference in age between my grandfather and my grandmother. Uh, and, of course, my dad had a difficult childhood and—because of the time he grew up,—and

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during the height of the Depression era, is when my father grew up. So it's really hard for him and his–and his siblings. He has—he’s the fifth out of seven siblings. So when we talk about what he went through, it was quite

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difficult. And-and, you know, I think a lot of what, you know, I see as I grew up, and some of the values that he had, the way he conducted his life was probably a result of some of that difficulty that he went through growing up. And so, you know, he did not get a full college education—he got a high school

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diploma, but, you know, he knew the importance of education, which is why he really drove us, my—me and my sister—you know, very hard, to get a good education, and to make sure that we had that solid foundation and

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baseline. And that's one of the ideals and–and, I guess, values that's been ingrained in me, and certainly I've passed it on to my children as well. Um, my mother, on the other hand, she was—certainly was—didn’t come from a

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wealthy family. They were, you know, middle class, you know, growing up. Her parents came from very prominent families within the city of Houston, and—part of the Chao Center, you guys probably know Dr.

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Edward Chen. He is—that’s my uncle. That's on my mother's side. That's my uncle's brother. So I don't need to go into all the details of what he comes through and his background, but—very prominent, and he's very proud of his

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heritage, as you know, as am I—I'm very thankful for the groundwork they've laid. So—because I know my great—I guess my grandfather, which is my uncle's father, my mother's father, was very active in the

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community–in the Chinese community. He served in the US government well. He served in the FBI, did a lot of things there relative to translations and teaching

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some of the FBI and CIA agents Chinese during the time of Cold War. And so, you know, I was very–very proud of him and things that he did. Not that it brought us a lot of notoriety, but it's something that I know that, you know, because of some of the groundwork he laid, you know, I think

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some of the Chinese in Houston, as well as my family, were able to reap some of that benefit. So, those kind of the early generations, you know, in my family history. Great, thank you for sharing.

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And you mentioned that one of the key family values was around education. Can you talk a little bit more about what other family values that your parents instilled you with? Yeah, education certainly sticks out.

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I think family—nuclear family, especially, but—and that's to some extent certainly extended family. Again, my father had six siblings, and of course, they had kids.

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They're all married, they had kids and some of their kids had kids, right, at the time I was growing up. Even though I was number five—my dad was number five out of seven, most of my cousins were actually—quite—much older than

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I am, so. But independent of that, I—one of the memories that I take from my childhood is, you know, all the major holidays: Christmas, Thanksgiving, New Year's, Easter, July 4th—we

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would always get together for extended family gatherings. A time to catch up, you know, see how everybody's doing, spend time with relatives, if you will. And that's how I remember—and getting to know my cousins and my aunts

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and uncles on a more deeper level than just, you know, very casual. So, I think the sense of family, the sense of remembering your family, protecting, being loyal to your family—very much a value

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that comes through. I think also, typically, besides education, of course, is the–the understanding the value of money. You know, certainly understanding what it means. And–and–be—and I attribute that to the–the timeframe in which my

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father and my mother grew up, you know. During the Depression era, money, obviously was very, very precious at the time. And so, understanding the value of a dollar, if you will, and then the value of hard work to get to where

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you–you’ve gotten to so far, and what you want to get to in terms of your goals. So I think—almost to a fault sometimes, in terms of being too miserly, if you will. But I think that's some of the values that were passed on to

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me, certainly, in regards to education, the–the importance of family and looking out for each other. And of course, you know, the value of taking care of your money and being wise in your investments. Did you grow up with any spirituality in your family?

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I did not start, myself, going to church until I was in—I want to say sixth grade? Sixth or seventh grade. Uh, uh, my mother and father both, actually, were members

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of the same church that I ended up going to, which I still attend today: Chinese Baptist Church. So, we're–we're Baptist—Protestant denomination. Chinese Baptist Church is the oldest Chinese church here in Houston.

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It's the—we—the church was—began its life, if you will, in 1953. So, it's almost, you know, 70 years old, if you will. It’s the first Chinese church. It’s not the largest in town

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anymore, but it's the large—it’s the oldest, certainly. My parents did not go to church on a regular basis. You know, part of the upbringing that I had—they had was going to church. It was a way to inter-interact and be social

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with other Chinese. It really wasn't so much for the spiritual aspect of it. A-and they joined the church because their parents told them to join the church, you know, as part of being part of the church community. But as I grew up, of course, I don't think they really understood what it

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meant to be a real church member, in terms of all the–the theology and doctrine behind it. So, I didn't really start going until sixth, seventh grade—middle school. And it was mainly—honestly, my mother wanted me to go

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predominantly for the social aspect, right, she wanted me to—‘cause she knew that I lived a very sheltered life as a child. So she wanted me to be able to spend time and be exposed to people of the Chinese culture and people that

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are, quote, “like me,” unquote, right? And so that's what I did. I actually became a member in high school. And that's—and of course, my wife and I, we both attended there.

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I'm actually a deacon at the church now. I've been there for twenty-some-odd years, being a deacon. My kids were, of course, really born and grew up in the church, so we're very involved in our church right now.

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So, despite, I guess, my parents’ lack of real encouraging—encouragement, if you will, with any church. You know, that's where—I’ve end up plugging in and integrating into that—the—you know, religious type of-of environment.

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What did you observe as some of the challenges of assimilation from your parents—and parents and… When you say, “assimilation,” you mean… Uh, trying to become part of—trying to be

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American, I-I guess. Um, actually, it wasn't as difficult or challenging as some other—some of my friends like, who were first gen, because my parents both, again, were born here in Houston. They were probably more American than, you know,

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a lot of people who are Caucasian. In fact, b-before the technology is as it is today with Zoom and Microsoft Teams, and very video-centric, if you will—well, graphically intense, when we do

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business on the phone, or when I would go to meetings on the phone back in my early days of my career. And then a person would actually see me in person later, they would remark many times I'm nothing in person

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like they would envision just listening to my voice. Because when you hear me, you–you–you probably notice there's no accent whatsoever. In fact, if any accent that I have, it’s gonna be Southern accent—a Texan accent.

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My parents are exact same way. There was literally no Asian or Chinese accent whatsoever. And that's how they grew up. And so that's how me and my sister

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grew up. So you know in terms of this so-called “difficulty assimilating,” language-wise, it was nothing—it was no issue whatsoever. And if it wasn't for the ethnic, you know, color of my skin, et cetera, there really

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would have been no difficulty in assimilating into culture. There were times—certainly there was racism—discrimination that I had to go through in school, ‘cause remember, I went to predominantly white schools. So having somebody that's different from them, you know,

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certainly it was part of—I had to endure. But honestly, it wasn't as severe as probably in some other cases, you know, that I've seen and heard. You know, my girls—we–we really want—one of the reasons we've decided to

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settle in Sugar Land is Sugar Land has a very diverse population. A lot of Asians, and Asian, I mean, not just Far East Asian, but India—people from India, and from the other nations in that region. And so, there's so many

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diverse ethnicities that my girls were able to be exposed to many different cultures, many different types of, you know, people if you will, ethnicities, and I think that bodes well for them as they became adults, and of course,

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finishing up their college education, deciding what they want to do for careers. So they have not had difficulty assimilating into, you know, the American or the Western culture. Now that being said, both of them—in—I

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found it interesting that even with the diverse set of friends that they have, predominantly, I—they gravitated towards spending more time with Chinese and-and Asians, you know, that's just the way it played out for them. Which is fine.

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You know, I didn't have an issue with that, but they did have Caucasian friends, they did have African American friends too. So, and, you know, I'm very pleased that they have developed a very diverse understanding of culture.

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For me, assimilation—diet, food, we ate very much American—we eat Chinese as well, but food, the holidays, very much, you know, American, you know, Christmas, Thanksgiving, July 4th.

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There were things that we would do to celebrate Chinese culture too, like Chinese New Year, we do something for that, and–and, you know, 10/10, we'd recognize that—the New Moon Festival, you know, we do some of that.

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But it wasn't near—like, I work for HP, of course, and I have people that work for me in Taiwan, and we interface with people in China all the time, as part of our job. The things that my family did, in terms of recognizing those–those

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cultural events—nowhere near what my family did. We were much less than—much more subdued about it, because my family was so Americanized. You know, my immediate parents and even my grandparents to some

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degree, especially on my mother's side. You know, my grandfather, of course, you know, worked for the government. So, he's very much in tune with that. And so, you know, for me, assimilation really wasn't that

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difficult, I think. And it’s probably due just to the fact that the number of generations down from where I am relative to when the first gen integrated—immigrated over from–from China, so. Yeah, it's definitely most interesting to see how

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cult-culture get preserved and onwards. Um, could you share a little bit about what are some of those some culture or heritage that you and your grandparents say, and your great grandparents and how they—how some of the

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say, like cultural traits get carried on in-in your–in your family? Yeah, it's interesting, because, you know, a lot of things come to mind, relat—because of my church, right?

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We still have a number of seniors–senior citizens that very much are first gen, or at the very least, you know, came over many, many, many years ago, right? And so a lot of what the–the culture, if you will, the traditions of

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Chinese, definitely are very pervasive in my church. So I see and still experience some of the things they go through, whereas to me, it doesn't have a lot of meaning or we don't ascribe to it. As an example, when a child is

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born, okay, there is this event or tradition that goes on, usually 30 days after—it–it kind of varies on the time. But there's a red egg party, you know, where they have a–an event, or—to celebrate the birth of a child. Traditionally,

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it's way back when—way, way, way back when historically, they had this event to celebrate that the child has survived this point, ‘cause, you know, back then healthcare wasn't very good. And so infant mortality

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was very high. So that was the tradition as it carried on. An egg of course, being a–a–a symbol of prosperity and–and, you know, being able to–to grow and, you know, the start of a birth, you know, egg, right?

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So that's kind of carried over, obviously, as people came over here. I didn't really know the story until, you know, much later in life about how all that played out. My parents didn't do that for me.

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I certainly did not do that for my girls. You know, my daughter's growing up. But still, I understand it, and I know what it's about. And so, you know, I can have an appreciation for it.

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Similarly, on the other side—on death, you know? Things that happen that the Chinese people do, in terms of—I don't know if I use the word superstition, but there are things that they will not do after—before a certain time period after somebody passes, or certain traditions

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that they do when a person dies and during the funeral. Even for people who are not—or even for people who are churchgoers, I think some of that tradition and culture is so ingrained, even though they don't believe in it, if you will, in terms of the

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spiritual, supernatural power of doing it, or the repercussions of not doing it, they still follow through because that's how they grew up, right? That's what they-what they knew.

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You know, things like that—eating certain foods—appreciably New Year’s, you know, you always gotta eat noodles, right? So, the symbol of long lack of prosperity. Those are things—even my wife still gets on me today on some of the things.

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She's a very devout, you know, Christian and we’re very involved in our church, of course, both of us, but chopsticks, you know, when you eat noodles, or–or when you're eating your food, it is bad luck to leave your

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chopsticks standing up in the bowl, right? I mean, I never knew that until she caught me one time. And, you know, just even like my–my–my mother-in-law gain–again, very–very Christian woman, lovely woman

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in that regard, she still has some of that come to her. And she–she always gives us a stern look, when—"You can't be doing that,” you know, “bad luck.” Like, so even now, you know, as-as-as Westernized as she is, and my wife

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and my–my–my mother-in-law, I think there's still some of that culture, I think, and tradition that’s just ingrained—that comes through, you know, with us, in that regard. So, you know, things like that, it's-it’s always, to some degree, interesting to try to marry the two, if you will, you know, maintaining a

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connection to your Chinese culture, and somewhat to your traditions. And then of course, you know, the American way as well. Like the Chinese zodiac right, you know? That—I get a kick out of the listening to the conversation.

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“Oh, you're born in the year of the dog; you're born the year of the pig. So that's why you're the way you are!” You know, all that stuff, right? And so, you know, obviously, in the–in the American culture, you have the horoscope, right? So you can contribute some of the same things.

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But, I just find it very interesting and–and educational sometimes to hear, sitting down with some of the older ladies, the aunties, right, that—they—that I can communicate with—speak English, because I'm not fluent in Chinese, right? You can probably tell that. But they share with me some of the

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stories, so it's kind of cool to hear some of that. So you don't speak Chinese? But do you understand Chinese, or… Very little. Really, very, very little.

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It's only really—the–the things I understand are some of the very basic things like how to say goodbye, how to say hello, you know, things like that. My daughters actually—or—have taken Chinese in school. My oldest daughter, actually, she's in grad school

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at Rice, as you may or—may know, Kelsey, and she's taking second-year Chinese on the college level. So there are things that actually my wife, who’s–who’s fluent in Chinese, speaks Mandarin, speaks Taiwanese, is actually

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at times, having challenges helping Kelsey with it, because some of the more subtle grammar things, some of the more complex literature, if you will—it’s things that sometimes my wife has challenges with.

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And–and, of course, then my mother-in-law sometimes steps in to help as well. But–But no, unfortunately, I can't read or write fluently, or with any kind of proficiency.

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I'm—that’s the one regret I have growing up with—I told you, my parents—particularly my mother, who's in the educational field, the philosophy of back then is, “Don't confuse your children,” right? Uh, so we only spoke and–and talked and–and–and wrote English when I was growing

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up. I did go to Chinese school, for a time. But that was only on a Saturday for one or two hours. And because my parents actually could

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not read or write, they can only speak, and my parents only spoke Cantonese or even a dialect of Cantonese called Toisan—that’s where my parents grew up. So Mandarin?

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I had no–no help. I mean, I was literally on my own. That's another reason why, you know, I have a lot of this isolationist kind of tendencies, because the things that I

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did, I—my parents really didn't help me much. You know, that's middle school. My parents could not help me with schoolwork. I was on my own, you know, for the most part.

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So, you know, a lot of that was kind of self-starting, if you will, or just self–self-effacing in that regard. So, unfortunately, yes, I’m-I'm not—I cannot speak Chinese hardly at all—cannot carry on a conversation whatsoever.

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It's funny because some of my relatives who can, they forget sometimes that I'm not fluent or can’t understand it, and they'll speak to me. And I'll have to say, “Timeout!” You know—do it over in English.

00:24:30.360 - 00:24:37.370

And then–and then obviously, remember—some of them still frown at that, “How come you never learn?” Like, well, I don't know what to tell you. I guess I'm just a bad Chinese person.

00:24:37.500 - 00:24:55.440

It's just the way it is. I can't speak my own language. And we're very honored to hear the stories from your uncle—aunt and uncle Edward Chen and Eugenie Chen. And can you share with some of the stories between you and your uncle

00:24:55.440 - 00:25:10.500

and aunt, and have they like, tried to tell you some of the stories of the history of Chinese American in Houston from–from–from your side—from . Yeah, of course, my mother—that’s-that’s how I'm related to Edward Chen, is

00:25:10.530 - 00:25:18.480

my mother and Dr. Chen are brother and sister. My mother was the—is the–is the older of the two. They were only two in the family, and they

00:25:18.480 - 00:25:28.150

were two years apart, if I'm not mistaken. Two to three years apart. So they're relatively close. My uncle, Dr. Chen, he had two kids as well, a boy and a girl.

00:25:28.850 - 00:25:43.910

The girl is one year older than I am, and the boy is five years younger than I am? My sister is about seven years younger than I am, so much longer gap. But because we were somewhat close in age, my older cousin, the one year—the girl that’s one year older—and

00:25:44.360 - 00:25:54.810

the boy who was five years younger, even though that was not as much—we spent a lot of time together because that was our—that was my social circle, really. Because remember, my cousins on my dad's side were eight to ten, nine years

00:25:54.810 - 00:26:04.680

older than I am, or seven to eight years younger than I am! So there—I was caught in the middle, I was the only one on my dad’s side that was my age. So, my cousin, her name is Karen, Dr.

00:26:04.680 - 00:26:14.140

Chen's daughter, was the one that hung around with. So, a lot of things that I recall, you know, in dealing with and interact with my uncle and my aunt was because of my interaction with my cousin.

00:26:14.580 - 00:26:28.080

We’d do sleepovers all the time, each other's house, I know my uncle for a hobby—there are a couple things that-that I remember from my childhood. He loved to bowl. And so, there were times when we’d go bowling.

00:26:29.140 - 00:26:43.330

You know, there was a—this bowling alley nearby his house, at the time over there in Bellaire, and–and there are times when we, you know, would go there. And–and there's—on particular days, they have specials, All-You-Can-Bowls for two hours, you know, for certain price, and he

00:26:43.330 - 00:26:53.880

would take us there, and–and I would bowl during the summer. There's a summer league for Chinese kids, CACA, a Chinese–Chinese American Citizens’ Alliance is the organization, the youth club, if you will,

00:26:53.880 - 00:27:01.220

had a bowling league for the summer when the kids were out of school. And I would do every summer. I know something I look very-very much look forward to when I was growing up.

00:27:01.220 - 00:27:13.030

Because again, it was a social thing and–and being around other Chinese. But my uncle very much was into that. Another thing that I remember is that–that he loved to play bridge, you know, the card game. And that he taught me and taught my cousin.

00:27:13.510 - 00:27:27.010

And there are times that we’d play bridge, you know, I won't say all night, but there are times that we’d get together and we’d just play cards—was a good way to interact and share about family and–and catch up on all that. And of course, my sis—my mother would come over

00:27:27.410 - 00:27:44.220

and–and spend time, you know, just talking to my uncle, you know, her brother a lot. So, a lot of that is–is what I remember—interaction, you know, between, you know, our families in that regard. Yeah, thank you for helping us connect that part of the history, especially in your

00:27:44.220 - 00:28:01.070

family history. A-a-as we move on to your education experience, can you talk a little bit about your memories around Rice University back then? Yeah, that’s funny, because when I–when I graduated from high

00:28:01.100 - 00:28:12.730

school, that was fair for graduation, I went to Alief Hastings, okay, that's the high school I went to. I graduated number two in my class, I was salutatorian. There's a whole story behind that, and my mother was really upset about

00:28:12.730 - 00:28:24.290

it, because I actually—in her mind deserved to be number one, but, you know how the—again, Chinese culture, right? Education, competition in that regard, very much a–a–a focus point, but it doesn't matter at-at this stage, you know.

00:28:24.290 - 00:28:39.960

But salutatorian, so I got to read my speech and all that, you know, at graduation. I actually got a full-ride scholarship to Texas A&M, here in–in–in Tex-Texas, College Station. And I was actually l-looking forward to at least visiting

00:28:39.960 - 00:28:49.340

the campus and kind of seeing what that's all about, because, I think, when you get to a certain age, and remember, my life was very sheltered, right. We—that’s another thing growing up, my father—because he was in the

00:28:49.340 - 00:29:01.170

business of the grocery store, 24 by seven, we never took vacations. Never. The only vacation we got was when he would close the store on Sunday afternoon, and we would go down to Galveston or Freeport to go fish, right?

00:29:01.170 - 00:29:10.450

That's one of the things that we would do. That's–that's really not much of a vacation, right? When we talk about the typical vacation, you go see different states or go, you know, cars, or fly somewhere.

00:29:10.780 - 00:29:24.250

I didn't start—I didn't take my first plane trip until I was in college. I mean, that just kind of tells you, you know, the kind of sheltered life that I led. But point being—is about—from my education is that I wanted—just—I—maybe a typical, you

00:29:24.250 - 00:29:35.720

know, teenager that age, because I lived a sheltered life, I really wanted to branch out. I really wanted to, you know, experience new things. But, you know, my parents, particularly my mother said, “No, no, you're gonna go to

00:29:35.720 - 00:29:47.320

Rice. There's no ifs, ands or buts about it”. So I really didn't have much of a choice. I had applied to Rice, of course, and I did my best during the interview process, and I was accepted, of course, but honestly, I was

00:29:47.970 - 00:29:58.260

looking forward to perhaps pursuing an opportunity to go elsewhere. That being said, Rice being obviously the school that it is—very competitive for sure.

00:29:58.830 - 00:30:12.180

Now honestly at the time, you know, I laugh about it now—but, you know, the kind of stress my daughters went through as they went through their college application, you know, I'm sharing with my wife, who also is a Rice grad, by the way, Cathy—we, you know—we kind of joke saying,

00:30:12.180 - 00:30:23.480

you know, if we had to go through that process again now, knowing what our girls went through and their high school to prepare for it, we don't know if we would make it to Rice, because the standards and the competition is

00:30:23.480 - 00:30:37.890

just so much more intense, you know, nowadays, than it was when we were growing up. But you know, I think, to some extent, it was—I at least got to experience some college life during my sophomore and junior year when I was able to live on campus.

00:30:38.830 - 00:30:50.350

Again, my parents, very attached to me in that regard. I think, you know, ‘cause my father—value of money. “Why do you want to spend money to go live on campus, when you have a free room here at house—you—at the home?” Right?

00:30:50.940 - 00:31:02.840

But I think, you know, and that's why my girls, when they went to school—even when my first daughter went for one year at the University of Houston, we put her in the dorm, and she wanted to be there, because it's a part of the–the maturation

00:31:02.840 - 00:31:12.360

process, you know, to be away from home, to learn to be on your own, to–to experience the things that you need to to grow up. And that's part of what I was able to experience to–to some extent.

00:31:12.690 - 00:31:24.610

But yeah, being here in Houston—to still be close to home, you know, have that home base to work from, if you will. But the educational experience, it was definitely a new world. I think coming from high school where you're—a

00:31:25.480 - 00:31:41.870

lot of things came easy, intellectually speaking, academically speaking. But at Rice, everybody else is like you, if not smarter, you know, faster, better just a lot—in how they can do things. So it was a humbling experience, definitely, going to Rice in that regard for me.

00:31:42.330 - 00:31:57.080

I look back on it—there are certainly times when it wasn't easy, but I'm thankful for—to Rice for the educational foundation they gave me, for the notoriety that a degree from Rice carries, you know, definitely—if anything it gets your foot in

00:31:57.080 - 00:32:08.730

the door. It gives you credibility. You still have to make it on your own merit, obviously, in your performance, in your job, or whatever you're doing. But at least it gives you credibility to get started, right? And I think that's the—what I've told my girls

00:32:09.030 - 00:32:17.890

about the schools they went to. My oldest, you know, grad school at Rice. My daughter, my second daughter, Megan, she finished and got her four-year degree at Southern Methodist in Dallas.

00:32:17.920 - 00:32:29.310

She got—double major and then a minor. She got accepted to Columbia grad school in New York. So, you know, very prestigious school in her field. And so we're very pleased and proud of her in that regard.

00:32:29.800 - 00:32:40.300

You know, the education, the-the notoriety of the school you go to, you know, certainly cannot be understated. So, you know, and I experienced the social aspect. That's where I met my wife, Cathy.

00:32:41.220 - 00:32:52.850

And so, you know, some of the social aspects there—and–and I still think back, you know, I still had a lot of Caucasian friends and other ethnicities, but even at Rice, we still would gravitate toward having our circle of Chinese

00:32:52.850 - 00:33:06.080

friends and Chinese circle, right? So even then, if there’s—as Americanized as I am, and—or I was at the time, there still was this, I guess, I won’t say unconscious draw, but kind of just this gravitation towards,

00:33:06.420 - 00:33:15.850

you know, people that are like you, if you will. I think there's just some semblance of unconscious—that they think of—they can understand the things you're going through, because there's other American born Chinese or ABCs, that we

00:33:16.090 - 00:33:23.430

call ourselves, right, that I would—within my circle that we dealt w—now, Cathy, my wife, she was born in Taiwan, and she immigrated over when she was 12.

00:33:23.820 - 00:33:37.030

So she wasn't like me in that capacity, but she was here long enough that she had assimilated into the American culture, you know, pretty well, so there wasn't a lot of friction in that regard. But anyway, so for Rice, I think a lot of things that definitely were plusses.

00:33:37.470 - 00:33:48.450

Some things that I think— a drawback because I wasn't able to really leave the city, you know, and go out to really, you know, experience some of that on my own. But, you know, looking back, you know, I do not regret the decision in that

00:33:48.450 - 00:34:01.050

regard. So, it's worked out well. And what were some of the defining moments, if you recall, during your time at Rice? Wow. “Defining moments”.

00:34:04.890 - 00:34:20.840

In a negative sense, or kind of a–a humbling sense, you're used to getting straight As, right, in high school, and a lot of things coming easy. The first time I got a-a-an exam score back that was like—I think it was like 54, 55, something like that.

00:34:21.320 - 00:34:36.510

You can imagine the col—the shock that I had. But it ended up being a B, because, you know, college is great on curves! And, you know, that kind of gave me a wakeup call saying, “This is not going to be like it was in high school.” And,

00:34:36.800 - 00:34:49.250

“don't take that as a false sense of security that you got a B, but knowing that things are difficult here—things are going to be where you need to actually, you know, change how you study, how you learn, right, and how you deal with things.”

00:34:50.080 - 00:35:04.790

Because—you know, for me, I think the–the defining moment there is knowing that in order to really be successful, while there are things I had to do on my own, for sure. And remember, I grew up in a—developing this isolationist attitude, I had to develop a circle of

00:35:04.900 - 00:35:16.270

people and friends that I could—as our study group, right? To work through together, to teach each other, to help each other through problems and understand and comprehend things. And, you know, those study groups were very instrumental, you know, in getting

00:35:16.270 - 00:35:33.140

me through, you know, a lot of these tougher classes. So, that's one of the defining moments, for sure, is how to deal with, you know , the humbling experience, right, of the grades and things like that. I think knowing that no one's going to help you do i—no one's going to be there to—like a

00:35:33.140 - 00:35:44.050

teacher, or a parent to tell you, “Go do your homework,” right? “Go make sure you handle this.” You really have to develop the independence. Even being in Houston, right—having to go through that.

00:35:44.830 - 00:35:55.620

I think that's one of the defining moments, that's there. I think, you know, high school, I would organize various clubs and things, different events, and such, but nowhere near on the scale, as what we would do at Rice and some

00:35:55.620 - 00:36:07.400

of the organizations and the clubs I was involved with. And having interaction with the city, and a lot of the things that we did with–with Rice. And of course, I was—at the time, I was still active in church.

00:36:07.880 - 00:36:20.620

So I think some of the defining moments was how—and I was able to interact with a lot of the city leaders, particularly in the Chinese community. You know, seeing that there's more out there than just what I'm exposed to at school, or in my family, or

00:36:20.620 - 00:36:31.960

even in my church. And so that was also, I think, a–a–a watershed moment knowing that, hey, you know, Houston, being the size of it is—even at that time—you know, a lot of culture out there.

00:36:32.200 - 00:36:43.530

People in the Chinese community that I had—don’t even know or even experienced, and what they do, and have—being able to, you know, experience that was definitely a–a–a bonus for me, in that regard.

00:36:44.140 - 00:36:57.080

Um, you know, I think some of the other things that go along with–with–with college life, you know, the different foods you have, and the different kinds of social events intramurals, you know, all the different sporting activities

00:36:57.080 - 00:37:09.240

and things, experiencing—you know, attending sporting events and getting–getting crazy, like you see college on TV, you know, dressing up and coloring your—putting makeup on your face. I never did any of that to that degree,

00:37:09.240 - 00:37:21.340

but experiencing that was definitely a, you know, a fun time for me. And, you know, I do fondly remember some of those things that we went through, in that regard. So-so yeah, you know, those are definitely some things there

00:37:21.340 - 00:37:35.870

that were, you know, resonate with me even today. Did you hit—Beer Bikes–Beer Bikes at Rice? I didn't know if you're gonna ask that or not. I did not participate as a beer drinker.

00:37:36.220 - 00:37:49.100

I was a reserve as a biker one year, is what I did. So, you know, I-I-I just wasn't that gifted of an athlete, if you will. But certainly, you know, I was one of those—‘cause, you know, it's very competitive

00:37:49.140 - 00:38:00.830

at Rice, you know, Beer Bike. And, you know, it's one of those things that we just, you know, it's a very strong teambuilding or college-building—you know, Baker, I was part of Baker, that's where I was a member of

00:38:01.190 - 00:38:10.360

the—you know, all the eight—I think it was eight colleges at the time when I was there, you know. And so, definitely the competitive spirit was high around then. But-but no, I did not ride, I did not drink.

00:38:10.530 - 00:38:21.810

But certainly we all participated and joined in, of course, at the time. So yeah, that was fun. And in terms of your major, can you tell us how you decided on pursuing that?

00:38:23.140 - 00:38:34.360

Well, out of high school, I think you–you–you think about what is it that you're good at, right? What is it—what are your strengths? What are your proficiencies? And science and math—very much were my strong

00:38:34.710 - 00:38:46.590

suits were, which is to some degree, another stereotype of Chinese and Asian, which is, I don't know, that's not fair. ‘Cause my girls, that are—don’t say not good at that. They're–they're proficient for sure.

00:38:47.050 - 00:39:02.190

But their strengths are more into the liberal arts side, if you will. Anyway, but-but for me, my strengths, and-and I guess, preferences were in the science and Engineering—and math. So, when you look at majors, you look at different kinds of

00:39:02.190 - 00:39:12.390

things that are available. I kind of gravitated toward–toward that. I think to some degree, it was also influenced by my parents and my uncle, Dr. Chen and-and my aunt, Eugenie.

00:39:12.950 - 00:39:28.990

She—they definitely tried to push me away from—I think it’s a term at Rice we call “academics,” you know, “academic” versus “engineering,” right? And so, going into that field, I think was something that I pursued—that drove me to–to

00:39:29.250 - 00:39:40.870

go that route for engineering. So—and then once you're in engineering, then—which one, right? You know: chemical engineer, mechanical, double E. And this is—the things that–that I—'cause I was interested in computers at the

00:39:40.870 - 00:39:53.490

time and, of course, during—growing up for me, it was very much the infancy stage. So the natural inclination was double E, so that's where I went to. As I got into my junior and senior year, I decided to specialize actually to be

00:39:53.490 - 00:40:05.030

a little different. This—kind of see where it was. ‘Cause you know, Rice, located right near the Medical Center, right? So, at the time, Rice offered four different tracks with the double E program. One was what they call triple

00:40:05.030 - 00:40:17.650

C, or circuits control communication, which is where most of the double Es went. That’s where my wife got her degree: triple C, double E. The–the second one was actually a focus in computer science. The third one was actually more physics-intensive.

00:40:18.860 - 00:40:27.960

Lasers, if you will. And then the fourth was bioengineering. You know, physics wasn't my–my cup of tea. That's the one that I got the 54 in.

00:40:28.230 - 00:40:40.400

And then-then, you know, I knew it was going to be difficult for me to really, you know, probably excel in that particular domain. So, I went–I went into bioengineering, ‘cause I had some interest in robotics, and–and–and, of course, being a

00:40:40.400 - 00:40:50.290

medical field, things like that, and doing a lot of work in the Medical Center as well. So, you know, all these interests is kind of what played into—and–and of course, my parents were very pleased with it.

00:40:50.290 - 00:40:58.640

“Oh, medicine, yeah,” right, and engineering. So, of course, they were all behind that. And so that's where I ended up getting my degree, as a double E with an emphasis in bioengineering.

00:40:59.050 - 00:41:07.330

I also got a double major—I don't know if you saw on my profile there, a Bachelor of Arts in Mathematical Sciences. So, statistical math, things like that, math modeling.

00:41:07.860 - 00:41:18.290

You know, so, I think there's a lot of correlation and overlap there. You know, I find it interesting, of course, because that's not where I end up going. I end up working for, you know, Shell Oil Company, which had nothing to do with bioengineering.

00:41:19.390 - 00:41:28.240

And then I moved to NASA, which also had nothing to do with bioengineering or medical. And then, of course, then I went to Compaq, and HP, so. So it's interesting how things work out.

00:41:28.240 - 00:41:44.010

But, you know, it's–it's still—I think, again, lays the foundation and gives me a solid base to work from. So that's kind of why I migrated to the degrees that I did at Rice. Were there any person or any mentor that significantly impacted

00:41:44.010 - 00:42:01.130

your decision, or any kind of life st—history, during like… Uh, not–not so much within my family. Honestly—again, a lot of my—remember, my father, he did not finish college. My mother did, but she wasn't really into a lot of strong

00:42:01.130 - 00:42:10.140

academia. Now, my uncle, of course, he's a professor in chemistry. My aunt was also very well educated. But in that regard, there really wasn't a lot

00:42:10.280 - 00:42:20.220

of push from them, beyond, “Oh, you don't want to be a liberal arts,” right? “You don't want to be that kind of person, you want to be engineering and science and engineering.” So besides that, as long as I was in some field

00:42:20.220 - 00:42:36.460

like that, there really wasn't a lot of mentoring, or a lot of pressure besides that, if you will. You know, as long as I did well in what I was doing and was able to be successful in that, and, if you will, felt that I could make a living

00:42:36.460 - 00:42:48.110

out of it, you know, they were supportive in that regard. And honestly, at school, there really wasn't anybody that was a–a mentor, or a real—not in college. There really wasn't somebody that was a real strong

00:42:51.110 - 00:43:03.670

influencer, if you will, or mentor, my–my–my college years. High school, there were a couple of teachers that very much I think—looking back, I think they saw, or at least they felt they saw a lot of potential in me, if you will.

00:43:04.170 - 00:43:16.420

And they were—very much took the time to mentor and guide me about not just the schoolwork, but about preparing for college, you know, in life, in that regard. And now I'm thankful for them taking me aside because, again, my parents—workaholics, right, another Chinese

00:43:16.420 - 00:43:28.310

attribute, which I find myself unfortunately, having to do many times, right? That's–that's the problem that I face in trying to find the work-life balance. But–but I'm thankful, you know, for those teachers and mentors, in

00:43:28.310 - 00:43:41.700

my high school days, during my formative years, if you will, that kind of taught me a lot about life-life lessons, you know, and balancing school and–and the things to–to how to-how to prepare yourself to be successful, you know, at the next

00:43:41.700 - 00:43:53.080

level, so. Thank you for sharing. And you and your wife both were part of Rice University. Did you meet back then

00:43:53.080 - 00:44:10.490

during college? Um, so, she was a senior in high school at–at—in Houston—Westbury High School, when we first met. And she–she tells me she always wanted to go to Rice, even if I—her and I weren't dating at the time. But we actually

00:44:10.490 - 00:44:21.050

started dating for serious, or for real, during her senior year, spring semester, I guess, you know. And then of course, then she went to Rice. And, you know, we were together ever since.

00:44:21.560 - 00:44:31.130

So we dated for—oh gosh—six years? Six years before we got married. Got married 1988. And then–and then of course, you know, still together.

00:44:31.670 - 00:44:39.770

So, thank God for her being here. And you know, we have the two daughters, of course. So yeah, it's been a fun ride. 33 years, 33 years, we've been married together.

00:44:40.280 - 00:44:56.080

So–so yeah, we can thank Rice for bringing us together, I guess. They had a—definitely had a hand in that. Yeah, it's wonderful how your family has been so closely connected to Rice in so many ways. Yeah, whether we wanted to or not, I suppose, that's kind of how it's

00:44:56.140 - 00:45:11.090

played out, for sure. And so can you tell us a little bit about your career experience as an Asian American in the workplace? Yeah, so, of course, I had part time jobs growing up in high school, even in college. In college, I actually did

00:45:11.170 - 00:45:23.750

some work for the university, you know, grading, lab work, things like that. But in terms of real jobs, right, you know, getting right out of school, I received an offer and work for Shell Oil Company, here in Houston again, over

00:45:23.750 - 00:45:35.410

there on Interstate 10 and Dairy Ashford, if you're familiar with the city. Anyway, but—so I was a seismic geophysicist, a fancy name, but you know, what I was doing was—basically there are people in the field in the

00:45:35.450 - 00:45:50.260

US, if you will, that would take readings from the earth. They would send shockwaves or signal seismic signals down to the earth. And we'd have sensors on the surface that we would take readings to determine “Do we have hydrocarbon deposits, or natural gas deposits, you know,

00:45:50.260 - 00:46:04.830

underneath?” And my job was to interpret the results and—using these complex programs to see if we have it there. Now, I started in June–June of 1985. So, I graduated in May of ’85 from Rice, and so one month after I started working.

00:46:05.410 - 00:46:16.400

Of course, you know, the oil industry, very volatile—the energy in-industry, very volatile at the time. And in Houston, because it's very much a prevailing industry, a lot of turnover, you know, a lot of

00:46:17.420 - 00:46:27.960

mobility, if you will, good and bad. It turns out that I was caught in a layoff a year later, from Shell. Shell had actually done two or three layoffs during the year before I got

00:46:27.960 - 00:46:39.830

laid off. And—but the one that—in June of ‘86, or one year later, after I hired on, is when it affected all first-year employees. So of course, I was part of that group. But you know, things worked out, of course.

00:46:39.890 - 00:46:53.890

Two months later, I-I got a job with NASA, the space industry—Na-National Aeronautics Space Administration. And then I was there for, let's see—get this right—11 years, and working in flight control and the shuttle program.

00:46:54.360 - 00:47:05.740

It's possible, if you go on the Internet and Google some videos of the Mission Control Center from that time period, you may actually see me there on–on tape somewhere, it's possible, you know, I was in the front room there.

00:47:06.390 - 00:47:20.630

Manning consoles—the data processing systems console for many flights. It was a—certainly a wonderful experience when I look back on it, you know. Definitely gave me a lot of practical experience in the working world,

00:47:21.080 - 00:47:32.840

and then what it takes to be successful. But I—at the time, Cathy and I—we got to the point where we wanted to start a family. And being in flight control, it was very, very difficult.

00:47:33.280 - 00:47:48.130

In fact, NASA during the Apollo days, and even during the Space Shuttle days, when I was there, divorce rates among flight controllers was very, very high. Because when you're supporting missions, that's your life. You're supporting the teams, if you will—you’re supporting 24/7, as

00:47:48.130 - 00:48:00.170

long as somebody is up in the air in space. So we go on shifts, right, and support that. And inevitably, you're gonna get a-a what we call “red eye shift” or-or “midnight shift.” And then two or three

00:48:00.170 - 00:48:13.550

days later, you have to come in and–and switch your circadian rhythms to support a normal shift! When you're not supporting an actual mission, you're training for the next mission, you know, so it–it can be very physically and

00:48:13.550 - 00:48:24.520

mentally taxing, you know. And to go through that, you know, when you're young and you're—you have energy, and-and you don't have any other obligations, you know. You can afford to put your investment into your job at

00:48:24.520 - 00:48:38.940

potentially expense of, you know, your family. But when we wanted to have children, you know, the girls, Cathy and I decided that I needed to find something more stable in terms of work schedule. So, toward the end of my

00:48:38.940 - 00:48:54.030

career at NASA, you know—what's–what's ironic is I probably, today, would still be there if it wasn't for how this played out. Because I went to my managers and my bosses and my directors and say, you know, “I like working for NASA, obviously, I feel I’m good at my job.” And–and they knew I was

00:48:54.030 - 00:49:05.560

good at my job, and that's kind of a work against us, because—flight control at the time, you know, it's not a job that you can pull somebody off the streets, and they can be serviceable, in–in–in a month's time or even two months’ time.

00:49:06.080 - 00:49:17.940

It requires a good two to three years of training before you become, you know, serviceable and they can trust you to do your job. Unfortunately, with, you know, just from the government—the way they are—and the situation was—‘cause in

00:49:17.940 - 00:49:27.650

the latter part of my career at NASA, I was actually a manager, first-level manager responsible for the group. And so I was the one that was actually training people. I was the one that’s actually assigning people to work the

00:49:27.650 - 00:49:42.190

console on different shifts. But attrition, again, very high because of this physically taxing and demanding job. We could not bring on people at a rate to account for the people we were losing. Another thing too, we were

00:49:42.190 - 00:49:51.490

very, very much dependent upon contractors. So it wasn't just civil servants—because I was a civil servant, I worked for the federal government. But there were those—that a lot of our workforce was contractors.

00:49:51.960 - 00:50:02.010

And the advancement potential and career just wasn't there for them in the–in the contractor rank. So when they achieve a certain level of proficiency or certification, they would move on to something else, still within their contractor

00:50:02.540 - 00:50:13.300

company, but they would leave flight control. So, again, all these factors contributed to where—it got to a point where, even though I was a manager, I was still working console, you know, actually working shifts and missions.

00:50:13.930 - 00:50:29.720

There are times we’d do 10 missions a year—you’re supposed to work at most half of them, you know, because you could rotate among everybody else. But when I left the–the NASA, I was working eight to nine of the 10 missions a year. And so it was quite difficult for me physically, mentally.

00:50:30.200 - 00:50:40.360

And again, that—there was no way I was gonna be able to be there for my family, you know, when we have kids. Children, you know, at the age—babies. There was no way. So I went to go look for other opportunities within NASA.

00:50:40.390 - 00:50:52.900

‘Cause you know, NASA has—certainly a big organization like that—other opportunities. But it got—it was ironic in the sense that, as I interviewed for other positions, their—NASA has this policy where, you're actually current organization

00:50:52.900 - 00:51:04.580

could put a block on you moving, because you were so critical to the role. And that's kind of what happened with me, is that my bosses that, “You're too valuable and critical and your role where you're at now.

00:51:04.890 - 00:51:16.760

We can't let you leave to go off to something else!” And you know, we obviously negotiate and work from this thing. “Well, look, guys. You know my situation, you gotta give me some assurance, you gonna allow–allow me to hire people, to–to give us

00:51:16.800 - 00:51:24.690

some relief.” And, you know, they would do what they can, but there's–there was—again, it takes a good two years, you know, to train somebody, and we just weren't able to hire enough.

00:51:25.650 - 00:51:38.970

And so I told them, “Okay, guys, you leave me no choice, but I'm going to have to look for opportunities outside of NASA, as–as much as it pains me. I'm gonna have to do that.” You know, if that had played out differently, you know—they found—and they were able to let me go to

00:51:38.970 - 00:51:48.570

another position at NASA, I’d probably still be there. Like my wife. My wife, Cathy, she's—she started NASA right out of school. She’ll tell you this, when you–you interview her at some point in November, I guess. She's

00:51:48.570 - 00:51:59.490

been there 33—some-odd years. You know, I probably would be a lifer with–with them as well. But because of that choice point, family over career at that time, that's when I interviewed with Compaq and–and

00:51:59.490 - 00:52:12.000

other companies, and I ended up getting an offer from Compaq, which eventually became Hewlett Packard, of course, in 2003. So I've been with them now for, let's see—this will be my 24th year, I'm going on 25. My 25th

00:52:12.000 - 00:52:22.120

anniversary with HP/Compaq will be in March—that’s upcoming. So, you know, you can tell I'm very—I tend to be very stable, where I'm going. So 11 years with NASA and now 25 with Compaq/HP.

00:52:22.970 - 00:52:35.370

And that's how my career has–has kind of migrated if you will. I've had many different roles in Compaq and HP, you know, from server group to valve in the personal systems, which is the laptops and notebooks

00:52:36.130 - 00:52:49.770

and–and–and workstations, different organizations development and now I'm in the supply chain group, responsible for the factory tools worldwide. That's why I have teams in Taipei, I have people in Mexico, we have people in Europe,

00:52:50.230 - 00:52:59.770

people in China that I deal with. So worldwide, absolutely, is the avenues and the arena that I play in these days. It's been a good experience, I think, definitely culturally.

00:53:00.360 - 00:53:12.100

You know, being able to expand and deal with different peoples and understanding in a global economy, a global environment. The pandemic that’s played havoc with us, obviously. But you know, going through that has been very good for me in that regard, so.

00:53:12.400 - 00:53:20.610

There's a lot more I can probably tell you about the–the technical details of my job, but that might take way too much time. So maybe I'll just leave it there. That’s kind of where my work history has been.

00:53:23.340 - 00:53:34.130

Great. Thank you so much for sharing the–the stories. And next, I'm wondering if you could share with us some of the stories of your involvement with the community. You mentioned you've been a deacon at the Chinese

00:53:34.570 - 00:53:48.180

Baptist Church. Maybe you could start with that, and maybe tell us a little bit about the history of the church. Yeah, the church in 1953, like I said, that's when it started. And honestly, when it first started, it was a—I

00:53:49.510 - 00:54:04.390

don't know how much you know about churches and particularly Protestant Baptist churches. We were actually a missions church or a church plant, you know, there's a church that gets big enough, they want to grow and they multiply. So they actually send people off to start a new church, you know, from their own

00:54:04.390 - 00:54:13.820

home base. So Chin-Chinese Baptist Church, my church is actually one of those. We were a church plant, if you will, or—from First Baptist Church in Houston, okay?

00:54:14.070 - 00:54:29.600

That's how we started. And of course, it was predominantly at that time— mainly for the purpose of getting—or of providing an opportunity for Chinese people, right, to get together. And of course, in the setting of trying to promote some–some, you know—growth

00:54:29.600 - 00:54:41.900

spiritually and–and in a religious way. And so initially, back in the ’50s, and ‘60s, it really was very much social in that regard. And, of course, you know, as the people who were in the church—and they started having kids, you

00:54:41.900 - 00:54:53.210

know, and of course, thing–things start growing, if you will. I think there's a certain level of maturity that comes up in the church of how people now start focusing on the real basis for what a church is about, you know,

00:54:53.320 - 00:55:04.560

understanding what it means to be a believer, what it means to be a Christian. You know, how do you exercise, like, the spiritual gifts that God’s giving you, you know, there's so much more I can get into. Um, and again, I started attending when

00:55:04.560 - 00:55:15.970

I was in middle school, and then I became actually a formal member and got baptized, you know. In the Baptist theology, you know, we actually get fully dunked—“full immersion” is what we call it. Not sprinkled or anything—no, we go fully under, into the tank.

00:55:16.700 - 00:55:24.260

You know, I did that in-in my early college days when I got baptized. And, of course, I got married. Cathy and I got married at CBC.

00:55:24.920 - 00:55:36.990

And then, like I said, our girls were—they weren't literally born at church. But, you know, as soon as they were, you know, w-well enough, or–or–or had all their inoculations, we took them to church, to the nursery and all that.

00:55:37.250 - 00:55:46.950

So they really grew up—basically born and grew up in the church. You know, I served in many capacities at church. I still do to this day. I teach Sunday school.

00:55:47.330 - 00:55:58.690

I—right now I teach—I was very active in the youth ministry, teaching a lot of the high school and middle schoolers for a time, very close to the youth pastors and youth ministers, helping them out in their ministry. I've taught many adults’

00:55:59.070 - 00:56:15.410

classes and young marrieds’ class, w-when Cathy and I were in that–that demographic. Now I'm teaching, I guess, they call it the “older millennial” class, you know, those that were born in 1980s and early ‘90s. I'm teaching that class now as adult–adults, if you will, a

00:56:15.410 - 00:56:31.650

group of adults. I also le—help lead worship. I play guitar: acoustic, electric, bass. So, I-I'm on the praise team, and I've been that–I've been on that team for probably, oh gosh, 20, 25 years now, I've served in that capacity.

00:56:32.360 - 00:56:45.490

You know, singing as well. So—and then many other different, I guess I'll call it administrative-related committees that have been on—personnel and–and some of the audiovisual committees and Lord's supper and all the different things that we

00:56:45.490 - 00:56:57.070

have to go through. But most—admittedly, most of my time over the last 10, 15 years has been through my deacon obligations. I don't know how much you know about Baptist, I guess, hierarchy or governance.

00:56:58.520 - 00:57:09.840

We have the pastors, of course, the church that are—the spiritual leaders and the teachers, if you will. But deacons. We're also ordained, so we're called into the ministry. We don't get paid for it, you know, in terms of

00:57:10.260 - 00:57:25.640

financial re—benefit. But we're there to really assist the pastor, so that's why a lot of deacons—we’re involved in teaching, leading, mentoring a lot of the congregation. So, a lot of my time is spent actually in consultation and

00:57:25.640 - 00:57:39.620

teaching people, advising, you know, going through difficulties and conflicts in the church. Because anytime you have people, you're going to have conflict. So we're having to deal with that, be peacemakers, you know, go through that. Go through discussions about “Hey, the church—do we see that we have to go

00:57:40.520 - 00:57:51.490

donate this money to this mission or this cause?” You know, we'd be involved with those discussions. Just you know, there's a lo—a plethora of things that we have to discuss as Deacons. There's about 10 of us now at my church, at CBC, that are

00:57:51.490 - 00:58:05.230

deacons, and, yes, it’s quite busy for us. We're definitely looking for more men, if you will, to step up, to serve in that capacity. But for now, we're doing what we can, you know, and we're trying to serve God and serve the church in the ways that we're led to, and so.

00:58:06.120 - 00:58:22.550

So yeah, it's a very big part of my life and my family's life as well. Yeah, I'm–I’m not sure if Helen has told you about—another lead intern in the program—that she's conducting a research project on the network of Chinese churches.

00:58:23.000 - 00:58:32.070

So I’m sure she would really appreciate the–the narrative from you. Sure, I mean, if she needs anything from me, I'll be happy to share. You know, what I can. Certainly there's

00:58:32.070 - 00:58:45.930

certain sensitive things I may not be able to get into but yeah, if there's anything I can do. Because I'm very familiar with many of the Chinese churches in Houston, for sure. You know, my mother-in-law, like I said, is a devout believer, Christian she attends church regularly, even though most of its

00:58:46.350 - 00:58:57.240

virtual now because of the pandemic. But—very active when she was going in person, she would teach in the children's department and—very active. So there's a lot of Christian influence, right, that I have in my family and immediate

00:58:57.240 - 00:59:11.030

circle. So yeah, if there's anything that Helen would like to talk to me about. Yeah, I'll be open, certainly, and share what I can. And how many people that the church begin with, if you would—and-and how-how many people are there

00:59:11.200 - 00:59:23.150

now? Yeah, to begin with, it was small of course, as a church plant from First Baptist. I think I remember seeing some of the pictures, you know, maybe 40 to 50 people, I think, you know, coming. But of course, as word got

00:59:23.150 - 00:59:33.450

around, “Hey, we got a church now for us,” right? A lot of the people in Houston would–would be interested. Unfortunately, as you probably realize, reading the history, you know, a lot of Chinese in Houston, having their

00:59:33.450 - 00:59:45.410

own businesses, you know, restaurants and–and grocery stores and-and things like that—they’d be open seven days a week. So on Sundays, when people typically would go to church, they're still open, they're working! So

00:59:45.410 - 00:59:55.220

that was one of the challenges—even today we face that, you know. A lot of people that, you know, in church, they work on Sundays. Sometimes they need to—professionals, like pharmacists, right? Or medical professionals.

00:59:55.650 - 01:00:03.930

They don't necessarily get to pick their hours or their shifts, right? So they're having to work on Sundays. And it's something that we just have to—we accommodate, right? Obviously, they're involved and they're active when

01:00:03.930 - 01:00:15.400

they can be, but you know, the work calls them away. We have—there’s one guy in my class that I teach. He's an EMT doctor—Emergency Medical Team doctor. You know, he's on call a lot of times, or he's working on Sunday

01:00:15.400 - 01:00:27.030

morning, Sunday evenings, you know, Saturday night. You know, we can't have him in class all the time because his job just requires elsewhere. So, you know, it was tough, right, back then in the—in the–in that early stages of the

01:00:27.080 - 01:00:37.230

church's development to get people to come and to really grow the church. But they had a solid base, and just, over time, you know, things organically happen when they have kids, they get married, they have kids and–and word of

01:00:37.230 - 01:00:47.900

mouth comes. Right now, CBC, we have three congregations, okay? One is the English-speaking congregation; we have one that's Cantonese-speaking, and then one that’s Mandarin-speaking.

01:00:49.610 - 01:01:04.450

Right now, our Mandarin, we have about 30 people that attend regularly, of course, online as well because of the pandemic. Cantonese, probably about 80 to 90 that attend regularly. And the English side, probably about 150 to 200.

01:01:05.290 - 01:01:19.360

Now, when we were—before the pandemic, the numbers were higher across the board. But, you know, now virtually there, we still have, I'd say 25 to 30% of people—of our church still attend, but they do it via Zoom or, you know,

01:01:19.360 - 01:01:33.530

virtual online. So, you know, it kind of gives you a sense for the membership that’s active. On our membership roles, we have about 1100 people on the membership roles. But again, a fraction of that is actually—maybe, you know, 4 to 500,

01:01:33.660 - 01:01:46.930

maybe, are what come in person at some point in time, you know, one of the services. Yeah, thank you. And I'm also wondering, since Chinese is an ethnicity, like there's, like, Chinese mainland

01:01:47.170 - 01:02:06.110

and like, Taiwanese, and like Malaysian Chinese and–and also there's first and second generation, third generation like yourself, like, how would you describe the kind of diversity of your church? Yeah, it’s—at times it causes friction, I'll be honest with you.

01:02:06.110 - 01:02:16.480

I think there's a-there's a cultural challenge, sometimes between all the different ethnicities, and you actually mentioned it. Even among the Chinese-speaking, Cantonese to Mandarin, and even within the Mandarin!

01:02:17.260 - 01:02:31.370

There's mainland Chinese, there's Taiwan, there's Hong Kong, and Hong Kong has both Cantonese and Mandarin, you know, predominately Cantonese. So there's cultural differences when you're talking about OBCs, or overseas born Chinese, and then ABCs, American born Chinese.

01:02:31.750 - 01:02:42.760

Now in my church, Chinese Baptist Church, the biggest congregation or the biggest majority, if you will, members are ABC, American born Chinese, like myself. And other Chinese churches in Houston, which Helen

01:02:43.050 - 01:02:53.040

probably has learned, it's the other way around, where the larger congregations are the Mandarin-speaking or potent—potentially Cantonese-speaking. So it's a different dynamic for us.

01:02:53.560 - 01:03:09.730

I think there are times when trying to educate people within my demographic, the English-speaking, about the cultural sensitivities of those from mainland China, those from Taiwan. You know, an example about some of the sensitivities, or I should say,

01:03:10.420 - 01:03:23.180

uncertainties that the mainland Chinese people sometimes have about politics, you know, and I don't want to make it uncomfortable for you. But you know, I think some of that plays into how they think or treat government, you know, and

01:03:23.180 - 01:03:35.220

how—and what they believe about that. I have two mainland Chinese ladies in my class. They work in the Med Center. And we have conversations about that, from time to time, how it's sometimes difficult to—and

01:03:35.860 - 01:03:50.180

because they see the political—better or worse, somewhat political freedoms or the ability to speak out, you know, in America, here. Where in China, that's not possible, right? Or it’s very much, you know, taught not

01:03:50.180 - 01:04:01.470

to do that, right? And it's part of respecting elders, but it’s also because of the way the government chooses to run the country—runs the country. So, whereas in-in America, in US here, and even in Taiwan, freedom of speech, right?

01:04:01.470 - 01:04:12.860

Even though you may disagree with the government, you have that right and freedom to speak your mind, if you will—in a non-threatening non, you know, non-confrontational manner. But, you know, some people in our congregation

01:04:13.590 - 01:04:25.710

don't really get that sometimes. And trying to understand how, sometimes there's this element of people coming in from mainland China that have, just, this element of being very much themselves because they don't want to divulge anything.

01:04:25.710 - 01:04:35.310

They want to keep things very private. And, you know, it takes them a long time to open up, right? And so getting our English congregation to understand that at times is a challenge. Because here in

01:04:35.310 - 01:04:45.550

America, we're very open. Here in Texas, very friendly, very open, right? And it's–it’s sometimes difficult for them. And–and even now in the English congregation, in our church,

01:04:45.860 - 01:04:56.430

we're–we're more than just Chinese. We have a-a—we actually have a Russian fellowship, believe it or not. A number about 20 people from a Russian fellowship that are a part of our church.

01:04:56.790 - 01:05:11.910

We have Caucasian, we have African American, some Hispanics. Now, admittedly, predominantly Chinese, but there's still the other cultures and ethnicities there. So I think there's also still some elements of friction there where our Cantonese and Mandarin-speaking

01:05:12.070 - 01:05:25.270

congregations are not that— won’t say “comfortable,” but in tune with those other cultures, to be able to relate to them on a comfortable level. And so there's some of that dynamic that plays in, you know, for sure.

01:05:25.830 - 01:05:35.860

And just philosophy, too. Our Cantonese pastor, my English pastors, sometimes they don't agree, right? Because of just their background and what they believe is how they should carry out their ministry.

01:05:36.780 - 01:05:49.840

And a lot of it is cultural–cultural based, right? So, those are the things that we—me as a deacon, we're having to deal with, right? How do we, you know, be able to get people to work together without disrespecting, you know, culture and background?

01:05:49.990 - 01:06:03.770

You know, it's a—very much a challenge for us. And, you know, we're doing what we can. People. How would you describe your church and in how–how it differs from, say another church?

01:06:05.290 - 01:06:17.360

Yeah, I think we look at the—yeah, some of the other Chinese churches. Okay. Well, so if you look at churches in general, obviously, we're a Chinese church, so predominantly Chinese. That's one difference in a lot of other Baptist churches in Texas, Southern Baptists, as a matter of fact.

01:06:18.000 - 01:06:27.980

Now, Southern Baptist is a huge denomination. So there's Caucasian churches, there's African American, you know, Hispanic, all different ethnicities. But that is one way.

01:06:27.980 - 01:06:42.360

But if you're talking about—if you're asking me about comparison with other Chinese churches, it's kind of like I said before. For us, we’re, I think, somewhat unique in the sense that our largest congregation by far is our English-speaking congregation, our

01:06:42.560 - 01:06:51.670

American born Chinese congregation. That is one thing that we have that I think is different than other Chinese churches in the area. There's one called Houston Chinese Church.

01:06:51.710 - 01:07:01.830

Their largest is Mandarin. There are other smaller Chinese churches in Houston. There's Fort Bend Chinese Church here that my mother-in-law goes to. Their largest congregation is also Mandarin, and

01:07:02.880 - 01:07:13.220

speaking. And so, you know, it's a different approach when you talk about, what is your—I won’t say “strength.” But where's your resource base from? Because as part of attending the church, you know, we volunteer, and we

01:07:13.220 - 01:07:24.470

participate in the ministry. So you know, where your comfort level is—if you ask me to minister to someone who doesn't understand English, I'm not going to do very well because I can't relate to them, right? So that's why for us

01:07:24.470 - 01:07:36.770

when we talk about where our focus point needs to be and where it should be, is how do you leverage—I’ll say, the “strength,” if you will, or the resource base that you have? For us, you know, needs to be in either those who

01:07:36.770 - 01:07:53.280

want to assimilate into the Western culture, ‘cause I guess I have two people that—from mainland China that’s in my class, they speak English, right? It's not their first language, but they carry on English conversations just fine. So—but they feel they want to and have a desire to assimilate into the Western

01:07:53.280 - 01:08:01.050

culture, right? Kind of what I did just by happenstance of my upbringing, but for them, they actually have an intentionality to do that. So, they look

01:08:01.050 - 01:08:14.520

for us on the English side to help them through that. And of course, those who are American born like me, three, four generations in, this is definitely where their-their sweet spot is, that's where they're most comfortable. Whereas going to another church that also has English speaking

01:08:14.520 - 01:08:26.290

congregations, but it's the minority, maybe that is for them, because they want a smaller group, right? So it just depends on what the person was looking for, you know, in that regard. So for us, I think that's one unique thing is that we—I

01:08:27.750 - 01:08:38.230

won’t say “specialize,” but we have a strength in English-speaking Chinese-American ministry, right? Whereas other churches don't tend to have the volume or the background that we do, in that regard.

01:08:39.060 - 01:08:50.870

We're also located centrally in the city. That’s another thing, too. Our church—most churches tend to be community, like within five, maybe seven miles within the church's boundaries, they all congregate to the church, right?

01:08:51.410 - 01:09:05.380

For CBC, we're actually a city church. We have people that live 30, 40 miles away, that come to the church, because of that connection to being Chinese, right? Don't get me wrong, there are some that come because it's the closest church to them,

01:09:05.590 - 01:09:15.810

right? But many of them because that's where they grew up, or they want the affinity with the American and the English-speaking Chinese. So that's what attracts them and draws them, you know, to our church.

01:09:16.220 - 01:09:28.800

So we have people live in The Woodlands, people like me live in Sugar Land, Katy, Clear Lake, you know, many, many—all these neighborhoods. I don't know if that's familiar to you, but they're, like 30, 40, 50 miles away from the church. So that's something that's also very

01:09:28.800 - 01:09:39.350

unique, you know, for us, which can be challenging, right? Because if you want to start to segment and go into different neighborhoods or areas, you've got to determine, “Okay, well, who lives in Sugar Land?” You know, “Can you do a ministry there?

01:09:39.690 - 01:09:50.470

Who lives in Clear Lake? Do a ministry there?” As opposed to, “Hey, well, we're all within five miles of the church so we can have a lot more flexibility there.” But it's–it’s–it’s definitely different for us in that capacity.

01:09:53.190 - 01:10:07.570

Great, thank you so much for sharing, and I'm sure Helen will really appreciate. Sure. your narrative. And next, we're going to move on to your chapter of life since 2020—how the COVID-19 pandemic has impacted your life.

01:10:09.290 - 01:10:22.230

Wow. I think, for me, work-related, I'm very blessed and fortunate that Hewlett Packard, you know, they're based in California and Palo Alto. That's the headquarters. But they have a sizable population in Houston.

01:10:22.230 - 01:10:40.620

In fact, now, just because of the way things have been reorganized and moved within the company, the Houston campus is actually the largest in the US for HP. I'm very fortunate and blessed that HP took a very sympathetic and caring approach with its employees.

01:10:41.170 - 01:10:57.470

I still recall going through it in March of–of 2020, when we went through the discussions, and when—because January is when we start getting the news, right, about COVID hitting and–and just started seeing things ramp up. But HP took swift action.

01:10:57.610 - 01:11:10.170

And starting in March, you know, they said, “Okay, everybody, worldwide, you will work from home,” you know. “We're not—we’re going to try to protect our employees,” as best they can, or–or—you know, “and-and try to do our part

01:11:10.560 - 01:11:23.270

to control, you know, the spread.” And-and-and then they announced “pandemic,” but it was—at that time it was “epidemic.” And so, it was a difficult transition for a lot of people. Now in my role, even though I'm in engineering, if you will

01:11:23.310 - 01:11:34.460

upper development, there's still a good part of what we can do that's re—virtual and remote, okay? There's some of my group that their primary role was to be in the lab, you know, to do testing and things, so it was very difficult

01:11:34.460 - 01:11:47.460

for them. But with technology, these days, we're able to actually provide equipment or configure things that they can remote in to their equipment in the lab and do their jobs. So we've been virtual—remote, if you will, since

01:11:48.700 - 01:12:03.720

March of 2020 until now, present. There were times when we—when HP communicated, “Well, we're seeing the trends go down, and we may be prepared to bring you back on in half-in half the week, you know, to come in and start easing in.” ‘Cause we didn't want to have everybody come

01:12:03.720 - 01:12:11.290

in at once, because you just have too much, you know, density of people. But then we have the Delta variant, right, that came out recently, and of course, it just seems to never end.

01:12:11.870 - 01:12:23.450

So right now, we're still completely virtual, working from home. For me, actually, it's worked out very well, because I live in Sugar Land, and where the HP office where I would normally go, it takes me an

01:12:23.590 - 01:12:37.900

hour and a half to drive one way. So I'm spending three hours on the road, minimum, going to and from work when I'm actually going to the office. Now, because I'm a manager, there's certain value in me being there to be face-to-face

01:12:37.900 - 01:12:48.880

with my employees, right? And it has nothing to do with trust. It's about maintaining the connection and building a relationship with the employee. Now I have people that work for me in Taiwan, people that work for me in

01:12:48.880 - 01:13:00.190

Mexico. So, obviously, I can't be there in person all the time. We will travel there once a quarter, you know, just to make sure we stay in touch with the employees. But when the pandemic–pandemic hit, you know, everything

01:13:00.310 - 01:13:11.070

was virtual. But because of the fact that I had people in Taiwan and I was doing things 80, 90% of the time virtual with them anyway, there really wasn't much of an adjustment, you know, in dealing and–and working with them.

01:13:11.590 - 01:13:22.200

And of course, the peer organizations that I worked with were in the same situation. We had people all over the globe, you know, and people actually in other cities in the US that we didn't—were not face-to-face or sitting next to in the office.

01:13:22.880 - 01:13:38.380

So for me, at least, it was actually a smooth transition. The challenge for me, I will say is actually in maintaining work-life balance. For me, there are times when the work hours and the family hours, there's–there’s blend.

01:13:38.480 - 01:13:47.740

So you know, I'm working 12, 14 hours a day, and I don't even know it. Because I don't leave my home. I don't go from my desk. And we're empty nesters right now—both

01:13:47.740 - 01:13:57.890

my girls are in college, or a different house. So my wife and I both, you know, we do meetings. And of course, I have meetings in the evening, just like I'm doing with you now. My nighttime—I have meetings with my Taiwan

01:13:57.930 - 01:14:10.610

folks throughout the week. So, I'm used to meeting at night. So there are times when my work, you know, it's-it just blurs the lines between the two. So that's my challenge is how do I separate—have discipline to

01:14:10.610 - 01:14:20.800

showcase, or to be able to say, “Okay, I'm at work now,” “Okay, I got to stop work,” and be able to devote time to my wife and my family in that regard. So, again, I don't have kids at home.

01:14:21.090 - 01:14:31.840

So it's actually been harder for me because the work hours just tend to blend. My wife—the same thing. I think it's been that challenge for her or NASA. She—of course also, NASA is virtual,

01:14:31.840 - 01:14:43.160

all from home. So it's convenient in that regard because she does a lot of business travel with her job. But all the international travel has been obviously stopped and suspended. She just took her first business trip a month ago,

01:14:43.760 - 01:14:56.220

domestic to Washington DC for three or four days. The first time she's d-done that in two years. I mean, she enjoys travel, if you will, and admittedly we-we reap some benefits from

01:14:56.220 - 01:15:09.520

that with her frequent flyer miles and all that. But for her, you know, it's different being able to have to do—she still has to do the interactions and meetings with the Europeans, with the Japanese, with the Russians, if you will, a lot of

01:15:09.520 - 01:15:20.480

discussions you have. So there are times when she has to get up at two or three o'clock in the morning, my time, right, to prepare for 4 AM meetings. But when you have to—if you have to choose whether getting on a plane,

01:15:21.040 - 01:15:31.780

you know, and travel 14 hours on a plane to get somewhere with–with multiple stops, change your sleeping habits, go there for a couple of weeks, and then come back and switch back. You know, I think she probably would say

01:15:31.780 - 01:15:42.580

that it is better for her to stay home and just adjust, because at least she can sleep in her own bed, you know, she can at least have the comfort of being home, even though her sleep cycles are going to be off. But it's easier to

01:15:42.580 - 01:15:55.650

adjust, you know, back and forth. I think the most thing I missed about our what’s—impact with COVID is the social interaction. Like at church, there—we were virtual at church for probably, I'd say,

01:15:56.600 - 01:16:11.470

14, 16 months, you know, ever since March of that time. And you–you know, church very much predicates on interaction, right, and being together and–and–and sharing with each other. And–and virtually, in service or in Sunday school, it was very difficult to do that in a

01:16:11.470 - 01:16:21.740

virtual environment. We started going back in person, partially, about three or four months ago. And not everyone's back still—still not everybody's back. And so, we're having to deal with that.

01:16:22.280 - 01:16:34.250

So, in terms of negative impact, that's been the biggest thing for me personally, and I think my family’s is social interaction, you know, dealing with people face-to-face. I mean, without getting into too much of the politics, you know, there's still a lot of

01:16:34.250 - 01:16:45.910

emotion, a lot of debates about “Do you get vaccinated? Do you not get vaccinated? People won't get vaccinated.” You know, and despite the data that's there, and, you know, without getting into all that, it

01:16:45.910 - 01:16:59.190

just creates a lot of-of anger, you know, a lot of emotional intensity with people on both sides of the issue. You know, that's one of the things that I've-I’ve been kind of sorry to see to played out. I mean, I understand how

01:16:59.190 - 01:17:13.580

it is, but it's unfortunate that people just can't be more accepting and–and more willing to do what's right for society, in that regard, you know. And even in other countries, too, it's been still difficult, but not near as intense as it is in the US, you know.

01:17:14.620 - 01:17:26.860

You know, America, the land of plenty, we have vaccines enough for anybody who wants it, you know, and there are people that just refuse to get it because of various reasons. Okay, I respect that decision, but you have to understand there are ramifications to that decision.

01:17:27.220 - 01:17:38.060

You know, whereas people in other countries, even in Taiwan, my people who work for me in Taiwan, some of them want to get the vaccine, but they cannot get it because it's not available yet in some areas, you know. It's kind of sad, you know, having a—where

01:17:38.740 - 01:17:49.370

America has it, but people won't get it. But in other countries, they want it, they can't have it because they can't get it. So, it's–it’s just an unfortunate state—and the world—we’re not done yet. And hopefully, we'll get to a

01:17:49.370 - 01:18:04.070

point of stability, but you know, I don't see it happening anytime soon. So, anyway, that's kind of how, you know, the–the COVID situation played out for us. What have you found that you have learned or realized most since the pandemic, as

01:18:04.400 - 01:18:19.680

so many things have changed? We had and still ongoing conversations about Black Lives Matter and the incident that cops did and the racial, like segregations, and how

01:18:20.560 - 01:18:34.390

things have changed? Can you tell-tell—share some of the stories or some of the reflections behind these events? Yeah, at least for me and my family, and I guess most of the people I interact with,

01:18:34.890 - 01:18:50.140

we've been very blessed and fortunate that we have not been on the receiving end of–of violence or anger because of the pandemic. Obviously, we know where–where ground zero is or was, you know, with the pandemic, in China.

01:18:50.590 - 01:18:59.950

And in the news, you know, obviously, all over in the city here and in the nation, where there’s all the backlash, right, against Asian people and against Chinese people.

01:19:01.160 - 01:19:16.450

It was extremely sad and-and very—at times scary to see that people have that level of misunderstanding, and I'll say it—ignorance—you know, in trying to blame people here for what happened, you know, it started over there.

01:19:17.260 - 01:19:34.100

And even then, you know, not—blaming some of the people over there just has no bearing and just—people just need something to lash out at, you know. And then of course, playing into Black Lives Matter, you know, about how, to some extent I saw it—I know this is a very weird thing to say or very kind of convoluted thing—but the

01:19:34.100 - 01:19:49.250

pandemic in some sense, I think has precipitated Chinese Americans in particular, who tend to be very quiet, very reticent about their speaking, their–their peace, their emotions, the political—being involved in political

01:19:49.590 - 01:20:00.030

awareness of voicing their opinions. And don't get me wrong, there are people—obviously, my uncle is a good one, you know, certainly. He is involved in those community awareness and political arenas.

01:20:00.550 - 01:20:09.140

But, for the most part, you know, I think Chinese and Chinese Americans tend to be very quiet, right, in that regard. Don't make waves, right? Just blend in and-and

01:20:09.140 - 01:20:22.260

do your—do what you normally do. But I think what has happened in the pandemic, it has raised people's awareness to the point where people who would not normally speak up and try to advocate for human rights, for

01:20:22.260 - 01:20:35.150

rights of all people, not just Chinese and Asians, but all people, it's really come to bear, where I think it has done a good thing, where I think raising some of the sensitivities and awareness of the discrimination, some of the things

01:20:35.150 - 01:20:46.020

that we as Chinese have gone through—even called it passive aggressive as well, you know, may not be so overt, although absolute is part of that. But–but some of the more passive, indirect thing is raising awareness of that.

01:20:46.310 - 01:20:55.460

My daughter, my youngest daughter, she graduated from SMU. She minored in human rights, you know. She actually works now—she’s taking a year off before she goes to Columbia next summer—or next fall.

01:20:55.810 - 01:21:10.580

She's working for a group here in Houston called the Organization of Chinese Americans: OCA. They specialize in–in advocating for the Chinese community. Right now, her and her team are very much consumed with getting

01:21:10.580 - 01:21:21.970

Chinese people to register for—who’d haven't registered to vote, right? To make sure they can have their voice heard, to educate them about the issues, you know, what's going on with this particular candidate? What they

01:21:22.030 - 01:21:32.870

stand for. Who they should—what kind of thought processes should they go through, as they decide who to vote for, and how to vote? This is all part of being really an American, right? How do you think you can have your voice heard.

01:21:33.600 - 01:21:49.380

And so, I think some of this, when I look at—when I say—it’s kind of weird, it's kind of a silver lining, where I see the things that have happened because of the pandemic. And the negative focus, if you will, on Chinese people and where it came from, I think, to some degree has–has helped people

01:21:49.380 - 01:21:59.270

to be more aware and more—Chinese people, right, and the Asian people. Because, you know, many peak times, Caucasians, you know, I hate to say this, they need to be able to tell the difference between Chinese and

01:21:59.270 - 01:22:08.660

Vietnamese and Korean, you know, Japanese, right? So they lump us all together. So, you know, it's kind of mobilized, I think, some–some of the relationships between

01:22:08.660 - 01:22:18.600

the different A-Asian communities, but to also raise the awareness of what it means to be Chinese, you know. Not to ask for special treatment, but to ask for fair treatment, right?

01:22:19.060 - 01:22:28.610

That's what it comes down to. And I think, you know, some degree, that the pandemic has helped to do that. You know, the world will never be the same because of the pandemic.

01:22:29.080 - 01:22:38.830

And I think some of the awareness that we face is kind of–kind of happened to do that. Now, we still face obviously, again, some of the anger, and the violence that’s come out. You see stuff—story in the news, even

01:22:38.830 - 01:22:53.710

today, you know. You know, there was a story a couple of days ago, where an elderly Chinese woman was–was beaten. Fortunately, she's not—she didn't die, but she was violently beaten by a non-Chinese person, and—under

01:22:53.710 - 01:23:06.530

the guise of, you know, the COV—pandemic. Maybe the person lost his job or lost a loved one to COVID, right? And they take it out on the first Chinese person they see. Sad, but true. And that's the kind of things that we have

01:23:06.530 - 01:23:16.210

to deal with, you know, in the community. And so, you know, having to treat the people with respect, but yet, you can't have a tolerance for that, right? You can't let that go on.

01:23:16.610 - 01:23:25.650

How do you maintain that and do that in a peaceful manner? I think it's helped the Chinese people understand what's in front of us. And we can't expect anyone else to be an advocate for us but ourselves, you know.

01:23:25.770 - 01:23:42.400

And that's what we have to do in the right context, so. Thank you for sharing. And next, as we are approaching the end of the interview. We’re taking up a lot of your time up to one and a half hours now.

01:23:42.960 - 01:23:55.370

Okay, sorry. Yeah. I tend to get going when I talk. So, my apologies for being lengthy in my responses sometimes. No, thank you for your time. Do you have any stories that you would like to share regarding CACA,

01:23:55.370 - 01:24:10.000

another community that you're–you mentioned. Touristry? Oh, well… for CACA—and actually, I was involved in another organization called the Houston Young Chinese American Council.

01:24:10.530 - 01:24:20.860

I was actually president for a few years. I think, admittedly, I—as I go through and recall some of the things we did, it was really mainly social, under the guise of doing community outreach.

01:24:20.890 - 01:24:33.670

There are times when we would partner with touring groups that would come to the US, and particularly Houston. Our sister city, if you will, was Taipei. And so they would send over performers to do certain shows and things like

01:24:33.670 - 01:24:46.290

that. And we help host them and we'd help to, you know, show them around the city. So, it's kind of like being a good host, if you will. But admittedly, we probably didn't do as much community inter–interaction and outreach as I–I would have liked when I look back on things.

01:24:47.080 - 01:24:56.270

Same thing with the CACA. I think it was a opportunity for the Chinese to bond together. You know, back then there wasn't much there outside of the job, and of course,

01:24:56.270 - 01:25:08.770

you're in your own business, you know. And of course, religion wasn't as mature or prominent as it is today, you know, the Chinese community in terms of opportunities. So the CA–CACA, I think, was an opportunity for the

01:25:08.770 - 01:25:23.160

Chinese to be together to bond to have strength in that regard. You know, and I think that's kind of the thing that's probably met its purpose, you know. And honestly, CACA, I'm not sure if it has the notoriety or influence that it did back

01:25:23.310 - 01:25:32.470

then. ‘Cause there's so many different other organizations and opportunities that people—particularly as again, as Chinese people become more Westernized and American–Americanized.

01:25:33.090 - 01:25:44.430

They want to, I think, hold on to their Chinese culture, and their history. But they also understand the importance of in-integrating and assimilating into the American culture. This is what they're going to—be their home. So how do you balance that?

01:25:44.880 - 01:25:58.210

Right? I think many Chinese people—my daughter's a good example. How do you find that right balance between holding on to and celebrating your heritage and your culture, but yet doing what you know you need to do to become an American, if you

01:25:58.210 - 01:26:09.710

will, and to integrate into American society and culture? So, you know, back then I think it met its purpose, you know, socialization, providing a sanctuary, you know, an assimilation, a bonding, if you will, for

01:26:09.770 - 01:26:21.310

Chinese people. Just like the HYCAC, the organization that I was president for a while. My uncle, by the way, was involved with that—my uncle Edward. But today, I just don't see it as–as

01:26:22.930 - 01:26:35.830

much of a focus as it was in the past, at least in that regard. But I'm sure there are many organizations that certainly have some of that bonding. But again, there's a lot more demands for people's time and mindshare, right, what their attention can been drawn to.

01:26:36.550 - 01:26:42.950

And back then, of course, we didn't have the internet. You know, there wasn't a lot of the social media. So of course, all you had to do was get together in person.

01:26:43.320 - 01:26:59.490

And today, I think it's–it's much different than—it’s a different approach, you know, to be able to accomplish some of the same things. Thank you so much. And at the end of the interview, would you like to leave a message for your future

01:26:59.640 - 01:27:17.750

descendants and later generations, if you like? Oh, okay, so I guess here's the–the motivational speech. I think I would leave for my-my kids, my grandkids, if my daughters have kids, you know, my legacy, if you will, that it

01:27:17.750 - 01:27:31.360

is always a value and there's always going to be something that you can treasure and gain from remembering your Chinese culture and your history and background. I think be careful to not let it cloud your thinking,

01:27:31.860 - 01:27:46.390

not let it drive you to decisions or interaction that would be unhealthy. But, certainly being from the Chinese culture and heritage, there are absolutely things that we should be proud of, things that we should celebrate, things that we should

01:27:46.390 - 01:28:01.470

acknowledge, you know, and actually—and frankly, use to our advantage if the opportunity presents itself, in an ethical manner, of course, but do not underestimate the importance of also assimilating into the culture and the environment in which you live.

01:28:01.890 - 01:28:14.340

Whether that's here in the US, whether that's somewhere else besides a Chinese-speaking country, you need to be able to adapt and adjust. I think that's one thing that I've noticed the Chinese people in Houston are

01:28:14.890 - 01:28:27.910

fairly—have-have been adept at is assimilating in, even though they still tend to be isolationist, being part of society, if you will, has been one of their strong suits. So I would encourage, you know, my legacy to continue to

01:28:27.910 - 01:28:40.060

do the same. Hang on to your heritage, celebrate it, but don't let it rule you or consume you, you know. I would advocate, certainly, learn the language if you can. Take time to learn and become proficient in the

01:28:40.120 - 01:28:53.520

language. You won't regret it. In the world environment we in, being multilingual, and not just bilingual, but multilingual can only serve you well. And being able to—that’s one thing that I regret in my life that I haven't

01:28:53.520 - 01:29:08.660

done is become proficient in another language, whether it's Chinese, Spanish—I’m actually more fluent in Spanish than I am Chinese, honestly. But regardless, some aspect of your culture, like the language, is going to be something that you will definitely value as you go forward.

01:29:08.760 - 01:29:22.080

So, anyway, that's one of the things that I would leave. Great, thank you so much Mr. Sham for your time and for your stories, and we're very honored to have your interviews and—along with your family archives

01:29:24.640 - 01:29:30.690

of your uncle and aunt, Edward and Eugenie Chen, with us. For sure, for sure. Glad to do it.